Social Media and High End Audio

[Ron Resnick]

I do believe the BAYZ radial speaker is one such new design. I will be in the BAYZ room with Zoltan Bay this weekend and hope to learn a lot more about the actual workings of his design, the nitty gritty as it were. I do know it is a fantastic sounding incredibly coherent speaker.

I am looking forward to meeting you in person, finally, Bob! Will you have a turntable in the Bayz room?

 

[andromedaaudio]

I understand these costs. I design and fabricate bespoke items. Once all your costs are figured out, i would venture that you are pricing primarily for the marketplace.

I seriously doubt that you understand these costs lol .
There is a wise saying : to make a small fortune in high end audio you need to start with a large one
If i would price for the marketplace i would at least have to double or triple the price based on what i heard in Munich , ...... and im not kidding

 

[Lagonda]

Wil, thats a foolish reply... Stop putting words where you have no business doing so. Small boutique purveyors of bespoke quality products can NOT produce product the way widget stampers can. Want a McIntosh ?? all day long in every city of the world ... and it will probably be discounted as a bonus. If a Boutique MFG is at peak capacity and sold out 3 months in advance all year and does NOT wish to increase the price to trim demand (what MOST companies do), then the reasonable thing to do is NOT promote. Nobody said they dont want business as you incorrectly state....

I honestly cant believe Im teaching this to an adult... perhaps Im being too assumptive...

Im guessing youd rather have them double the price so they would need to promote the product harder at AXPONA... ??? Do you even understand your reasoning and how defunct it is ?? You represent the mentality that has driven this industry into the stratosphere from a cost standpoint.. Way to go...

How about increasing production output ? That would be a reasonable thing to do if are behind on you delivery's ! Increasing price to cull interest sounds counterproductive !

 

[Solypsa]

.... in the context of your no-improvement position.

I read @andromedaaudio as saying that loudspeaker technology is not evolving rapidly. His points vis a vis core technologies being fairly stable (in recent decades) are imho accurate.

This doesn't mean his design cant be better than others. I haven't heard them so no idea.

As you know from personal experience it is hard work to design excellent mechanical devices and even harder to make them reliable and affordable . So some speaker designs are better than others and some manufacturers more efficient than others. You just can't say, imho, based on time - technology gains, that newer speakers are all better than all preceding ones.

Carry on

 

[Robert Young]

I seriously doubt that you understand these costs lol .
There is a wise saying : to make a small fortune in high end audio you need to start with a large one
If i would price for the marketplace i would at least have to double or triple the price based on what i heard in Munich , ...... and im not kidding

Your arrogance is getting in the way. You don’t have any idea what i do, for how long i’ve done it, or whether my work is considered any good. Making the kind of assumptions you have made just illustrates why so much about this “hobby” is actually detestable. Your “wise saying” is hardly about audio. That saying has a long history, well before the existence of an audio “industry,” and all it illustrates is that it’s a bad business to be in.

A $1200 Duelund cap doesn’t justify a $50,000 price, particularly if you claim there is no advancement. Surely you chose expensive caps over lesser priced high quality caps because they do something better, i.e., are more advanced. And you aren’t paying retail for those caps (or the implication of your wise saying really would apply).

i’m also surprised that anyone would put any trust in the sound of equipment at a show as being representative. The conditions at those events are miserable. I still go to a few shows just to see and partially hear equipment i’ve heard about, but i don’t expect to hear stuff at its best. I just enjoy the BS and seeing nice kit.

like i said earlier, your speakers look beautiful. But at $50,000, that’s not enough of a sell. If there is no way to hear them, or at least read a review, and there’s been no improvement in speakers for decades, then why would i buy yours?

 

[Al M.]

i’m also surprised that anyone would put any trust in the sound of equipment at a show as being representative. The conditions at those events are miserable. I still go to a few shows just to see and partially hear equipment i’ve heard about, but i don’t expect to hear stuff at its best.

That's a commonsense argument I've tried to make for years, but to little avail.

It's truly pathetic what far-reaching conclusions people draw from sound at shows. If it's great, fine, but if it's not, so what? Too many factors at play.

 

[andromedaaudio]

, then why would i buy yours?

Thats a good question ,one that only you can decide.
Mine have a custom designed X over which off course makes or brakes a speaker design.
Judging speaker quality on component price is a useless exersize

Ps
If people are really interested they can always make an appointment in Brussels.


Ps im working on a more easy to transport/ show to dealers ( smaller speakers ) budget line .
Made with thinner walls and no machined basspipe etc .
Will be ready late summer/ autumn somewhere and is designed more for commerce

 

[Verastarr]

How about increasing production output ? That would be a reasonable thing to do if are behind on you delivery's ! Increasing price to cull interest sounds counterproductive !

Its only counterproductive for the buyer and the industry as a whole. Potentially the MFG works the same and doubles thier profit. World class designs sell anyways and Playback is still only a $24K DAC.. They make the DAC engine for the $65K NAGRA.. so let that sink in. The integrity of Playback Designs is very high. They could easily sell for $48K and still undercut the competition...Who said Playback wont scale ?? Nobody... Its just right now, theres a pinch, so while he is at the shows normally, hes holding a few shows back... No big deal...

 

[Verastarr]

Just poking fun at your dealer hype. It’s irresistible!

Of course PD is not actually turning down orders even though your first statement, as their global top dealer, literally reads: “The last thing they want is more orders.”

Many manufacturers become backlogged for various reasons, but they don’t stop taking deposits on orders.

LOL, OK, whatever makes you laugh.... I dont mind... Playback Designs does not take deposits. I do, and only when I have a completion date and allotment confirmed. I pre sell every quarterly allotment I can get. I buy the max amount I can each quarter. Id inventory them in multiples if it were possible. Just because I say they are purposely putting the reigns on promotion does not mean they take an arrogant position about it which is what you assert.
Playback Designs is one of the most respectable, honorable, honest brands I know of ...
Sorry if I put you off... it was not my intent...

 

[Lee]

Hi Lee, I'd LOVE to hear Wilsons doing anything other than Analytical soulless HiFi sound... I just heard the Chronosonics... Not impressed.... Please ... I must hear them well done so I may give them a fair shake before totally closing the coffin on them...

No problem. Let me get the subs dialed in a bit more and I will invite you.

Likewise, I would love to hear the TAD loudspeakers again. I am a fan.

 

[Verastarr]

I remain baffled by the ubiquitousness of D'Agostino of on Alexx V and on XVX. Please hear the XVX driven by big tubes -- ARC 750/VAC 450/VTL Siegfried II -- and see if you still feel (ah, hear) the same way.

Hi Ron, Id love to... I sell the Manley Neo Classic 500 monos just for this purpose. I dont know what amps Lee is using..

 

[Verastarr]

That's a commonsense argument I've tried to make for years, but to little avail.

It's truly pathetic what far-reaching conclusions people draw from sound at shows. If it's great, fine, but if it's not, so what? Too many factors at play.

LOL, THANK YOU....Ive been getting crucified for saying this in my vids....

 

[Verastarr]

No problem. Let me get the subs dialed in a bit more and I will invite you.

Likewise, I would love to hear the TAD loudspeakers again. I am a fan.

Lets get together after AXPONA...

 

[Al M.]

LOL, THANK YOU....Ive been getting crucified for saying this in my vids....

You're very welcome!

 

[Bobvin]

I am looking forward to meeting you in person, finally, Bob! Will you have a turntable in the Bayz room?

Likewise Ron. No TT in Bayz room

 

[Robert Young]

Judging speaker quality on component price is a useless exersize

Agree, but it was you who brought up the cost of internal components and cost of millwork as the reason for the price of your speakers. Unlike some (though not at all begrudging them their financial freedom) the price of any component i assess is a limiting factor. Were it not, i would have a different system that might or might not provide me with a better experience. But my financial fantasy is just that…back to the wise saying, but this time applied to a different profession.

 

[Robert Young]

We can talk now no problem , Im telling it like it is .
Off course the price includes a profit after taxes
I can invent a whole BS story to hike up the price but i m not that type a guy .
If you would see the speakers in person im sure there are no complaints about build quality / fit Finish at that pricepoint , SQ wise there is always a debate in audio

But since you apparently design for Bespoke please include your business affiliation in your signature .
So we can get an idea as to what you bring to the market place and for what price

I don’t “design for Bespoke.” Is that a company? Because it is also an adjective. I’m an architect, and i design large-scale cultural institutions including for the performing arts. Due to the programmatic complexities and extraordinarily high level of required performance, nearly everything in the projects is custom. Brooklyn Museum tensile glass; Zankel Hall at Carnegie Hall. Budgets in the $100 million +.

 

[andromedaaudio]

There's a huge difference (to me at least) between what constitutes "preference" and what constitutes an "improvement" in objective performance.

If there are no technical improvements other than inert cabinet materials, why do your speakers cost $50,000? I'm trying to get at the issue you have with the concept of advancement, whether game-changing or incremental.

I see it differently
It was not me who started talking about price in the first place.


I thought you meant bespoke audio which is an english audio company.

Looks great your designs .
My speakerdesigns are a simple form follows function design which will stand the test of time hopefully .

 

[Robert Young]

I see it differently
It was not me who started talking about price in the first place.


I thought you meant bespoke audio which is an english audio company.

Looks great are these your designs ?

I brought up price because i was trying to understand the relationship between speakers not having advanced much over 50 years or so and prices that far outstrip financial escalation…my bet without having heard them is that your speakers (and many many others) demonstrate great advancements. That the Vitavox are so special is a testament to that design alone…

yes, those are a couple of my projects. Never heard of Bespoke Audio, but now i understand your post better.

everything you see in the Brooklyn project is a custom fabrication to achieve a unique structural solution as light-weight as possible. The Zankel Hall project is special to me as it is built directly beneath Stern Auditorium at Carnegie Hall, in a very challenging space, with the requirement of muliple seating/stage configurations (as needed by Pierre Boulez, who was a driving force for the project) all automated (to save the costs and time of stagehand labor). The acoustics are great for smaller ensembles and jazz, both of which were eaten up in Stern. Though one can sometimes hear the A train subway riding past, despite incredible efforts at mitigating vibration transfer through the New York City schist that makes up the foundation bedrock of all NYC buildings. New York’s version of hearing crickets at Tanglewood….

 

[Lee]

I brought up price because i was trying to understand the relationship between speakers not having advanced much over 50 years or so and prices that far outstrip financial escalation…my bet without having heard them is that your speakers (and many many others) demonstrate great advancements. That the Vitavox are so special is a testament to that design alone…

yes, those are a couple of my projects. Never heard of Bespoke Audio, but now i understand your post better.

everything you see in the Brooklyn project is a custom fabrication to achieve a unique structural solution as light-weight as possible. The Zankel Hall project is special to me as it is built directly beneath Stern Auditorium at Carnegie Hall, in a very challenging space, with the requirement of muliple seating/stage configurations (as needed by Pierre Boulez, who was a driving force for the project) all automated (to save the costs and time of stagehand labor). The acoustics are great for smaller ensembles and jazz, both of which were eaten up in Stern. Though one can sometimes hear the A train subway riding past, despite incredible efforts at mitigating vibration transfer through the New York City schist that makes up the foundation bedrock of all NYC buildings. New York’s version of hearing crickets at Tanglewood….

Robert,

I love your architectural work. Really cool projects.

In my opinion, both electronics and speakers have advanced greatly in the last 50 years, and also in the last five. Pricing is fair imho as well. As an example, Magico speakers sell at 5-6 times Bill of Materials cost. That’s a reasonable margin. Like in any luxury business, an ‘ultra luxury customer segment’ has emerged.

We can cry at $750,000 loudspeakers but it serves two great functions. 1. It generates significan profits which ptotect against recessions. And 2. It creates trickle down technology which makes better sound available for more people.

If Wilson or Magico or Rockport build a $2 million speaker next, it will be a very good thing for many people.