Social Media and High End Audio

[caesar]

I have been very critical about some of the social media folks and their behavior and also for their lack of experience and their agenda driven rants. I believe that those who are selling gear and/or are associated with dealers or manufacturers ( this applies to review sites as well) are really doing more harm than good and are walking a very fine line in the ethics department. I believe that video is the present and the future for High End audio just as it is for almost every other product based industry. Knowledge is good and the easiest and fastest way to get that information out I also believe is a good thing. I was very disappointed by some of the IMO mean spirited attacks on manufacturers in some of these social media sites and the repression and insulting replies to questions and dissenting viewpoints. If you are going to discuss something and try to be a journalist then I believe it should be balanced and as fair as possible. OK my speech is over.
I saw this video this morning and thought it might be a very good place to have a discussion of some points that were made within it.
I am a lifer and audio is not only my joy but it is my business as well. All points of view are needed to improve the industry for all participants in all areas of the business and hobby. Knowledge is power.
Gentlemen the floor is yours:

Hi Elliot,

Sorry, l am late to this party. But I am a bit confused by the title of your post title "social media and high end audio." And I am also not clear what you are concerned about.

FYI: forums are social media also! guys are sharing information in a online social setting! You are also on social media!

I browsed this video - don't have over 20 minutes to watch - and he does raise some valid points. If you trust youtube stats, under 8K users clicked on his video. but how many people actually watched or paid attention? Your thread also has that number of views, and , of course, with some repeat individuals going back to get the latest...

You think this guy is a boob and people are taking him seriously?

How about some of the misinformation and disinformation artists like some of the disguising the guys from the Analytical Sound who claimed that Berkely Reference DAC was "the best dac extant" (before Wadax). Or the now extinct magico q series, which was voiced to accentuate upper midrange and lower treble, was the "champion of the world" . Or that Wilson is a "time machine"... God bless Wilson: great family, excellent company, popular audiophile taste - but a time machine? HELL NO... A huge beneficiary of bandwagon effects? HELL YES!!! (sorry guys, just basic economics)

At least what I heard from the guy in the youtube video was not misleading as from the old "experts"/ misinformation / disinformation artists / propagandists

So what really peeves you?

 

[Lee]

Hi Elliot,

Sorry, l am late to this party. But I am a bit confused by the title of your post title "social media and high end audio." And I am also not clear what you are concerned about.

FYI: forums are social media also! guys are sharing information in a online social setting! You are also on social media!

I browsed this video - don't have over 20 minutes to watch - and he does raise some valid points. If you trust youtube stats, under 8K users clicked on his video. but how many people actually watched or paid attention? Your thread also has that number of views, and , of course, with some repeat individuals going back to get the latest...

You think this guy is a boob and people are taking him seriously?

How about some of the misinformation and disinformation artists like some of the disguising the guys from the Analytical Sound who claimed that Berkely Reference DAC was "the best dac extant" (before Wadax). Or the now extinct magico q series, which was voiced to accentuate upper midrange and lower treble, was the "champion of the world" . Or that Wilson is a "time machine"... God bless Wilson: great family, excellent company, popular audiophile taste - but a time machine? HELL NO... A huge beneficiary of bandwagon effects? HELL YES!!! (sorry guys, just basic economics)

At least what I heard from the guy in the youtube video was not misleading as from the old "experts"/ misinformation / disinformation artists / propagandists

So what really peeves you?

I just want to note that you dispute Wilson speakers being a time machine, yet you have never been to my house and heard the Alexia Vs.

 

[Bobvin]

I’m pretty sure that the laws of Physics apply equally to all electro-acoustic transducers; you can probably check that with your son in law. Not sure how boundaries interface differently with “more capable speakers”. Your sense of grandiosity is comical.

Oh for sure Carlos, let’s take a “typical“ speaker with a 8 inch mid, 12 inch woofer and a dome tweeter — and compare that to Mike’s speakers with their voluminous driver surface area , are you saying that those speakers are going to interact with the room in the same way.

i’m sure that if you choose to spend the same amount of time tweaking the placement of the “Lesser” speaker you can maximize its capabilities in any given room. but for sure, a 7 foot tall woofer tower on each side is going to interface with the room profoundly differently than a much more “typical“ sized speaker. Consequently, getting that speaker optimally set up is going to take a bit more effort.

but that is just my humble layman opinion. I do not profess to sit at the top of the mountain having acquired all the knowledge of someone with a godly like status such as yourself.

 

[Lagonda]

To me it looks like major speaker manufacturers got together and agreed to sneak in an extra zero on the back of their top speaker offerings price ! With very little performance increase mind you !

 

[Carlos269]

Oh for sure Carlos, let’s take a “typical“ speaker with a 8 inch mid, 12 inch woofer and a dome tweeter — and compare that to Mike’s speakers with their voluminous driver surface area , are you saying that those speakers are going to interact with the room in the same way.

i’m sure that if you choose to spend the same amount of time tweaking the placement of the “Lesser” speaker you can maximize its capabilities in any given room. but for sure, a 7 foot tall woofer tower on each side is going to interface with the room profoundly differently than a much more “typical“ sized speaker. Consequently, getting that speaker optimally set up is going to take a bit more effort.

but that is just my humble layman opinion. I do not profess to sit at the top of the mountain having acquired all the knowledge of someone with a godly like status such as yourself.

Thanks for the rebuttal as it gives me the opportunity to address a number of items:

1) My interpretation of Mike’s post was not in a simple speaker, like the one that you used as an example: a “typical“ speaker with a 8 inch mid, 12 inch woofer and a dome tweeter — versus a more complex Speaker system like Mike’s speakers. I instead interpret it in his usual elitist of a modest, read cost, speaker versus an “Uber”, ridiculously priced speaker.

2) As we all know quality does not always go hand in hand with quantity or capability or we would all be listening to Pro-Audio systems. The amount of bass and SPL of sound reinforcement systems is extremely capable but it is the refinement that they lack, but not always; so this addresses your example.

3) As I have mentioned on this and other forums, this audio hobby is like cooking and a more knowledgeable or savvy owner may be able to achieve more from a modest system than a clueless deep-pocket audiophiles who thinks that they can achieve greatness by purchasing components with panache or listed in Class A+++++ of some recommended list. This hobby is part art and part science and you have you humble systems that recreate music and you have your multi-hundred thousand dollars or million dollar systems that sound dreadful. We have thread on WBF and so far no one with an “Uber” system other than Ron and Mike Fremer have submitted a video of their system, and I will let you be the judge of how they fared agains more modest competition. So are Ron’s and Michael Fremer’s systems not “capable” enough.

4) A friend of mine owns a night club and he recently purchased some really good set of speakers for the club From BassBoss. He asked me to come by and tube the speakers. I tuned them exactly like I do my speakers at home. The results? Every DJ that comes to town always complements him on the sound and state that the sound in the club is exceptional.These are from DJ’s that play all over the world from LA to NY, to Ibiza to Singapore and beyond.

5) if the elitist with these “Uber” systems really think that they have something far superior to the modest systems then we need to start hearing evidence of this.

6) For the record, I have many different systems in costs all over the place and I can tell you that cost is not an indicator of performance, what really matters is system matching and proper set-up, noticed that I did not mention the room.

 

[Ron Resnick]

you have your multi-hundred thousand dollars or million dollar systems that sound dreadful.

For someone who claims so much experience in this hobby this excerpt suggests that you do not understand the fundamental fact that this is a subjective hobby. Unless the owner of a very expensive system agrees with you that it sounds dreadful, if the system genuinely pleases the owner the fact that it may sound dreadful to you is irrelevant. Your belief that it sounds objectively dreadful -- with the implication that the owner is an idiot for liking it -- is arrogance.

 

[Carlos269]

For someone who claims so much experience in this hobby this excerpt suggests that you do not understand the fundamental fact that this is a subjective hobby. Unless the owner of a very expensive system agrees with you that it sounds dreadful, if the system genuinely pleases the owner the fact that it may sound dreadful to you is irrelevant. Your belief that it sounds objectively dreadful -- with the implication that the owner is an idiot for liking it -- is arrogance.

Let me correct you here yet again it is not arrogance, it is that everyone is entitled to their opinion, like it or not.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Let me correct you here yet again it is not arrogance, it is that everyone is entitled to their opinion, like it or not.

As it is a subjective hobby, I agree with you that each person is entitled to his/her opinion.

 

[Audire]

For someone who claims so much experience in this hobby this excerpt suggests that you do not understand the fundamental fact that this is a subjective hobby. Unless the owner of a very expensive system agrees with you that it sounds dreadful, if the system genuinely pleases the owner the fact that it may sound dreadful to you is irrelevant. Your belief that it sounds objectively dreadful -- with the implication that the owner is an idiot for liking it -- is arrogance.

IMO, the majority of the Audiophile community are in denial of the truth! Most don‘t have resolving systems that may detect deficiencies in their systems. Ron, do you? If you don’t - and you don't - then your opinion is meaningless!

Many audiophiles, esp. dealers, post lies.They merely desire to convince individuals on WTB that they have the “best“ system to make some additional $$$! Marketing is why they are on WTB! Some owners and dealers on forums will go to extremes to support their lies! Why? To rack-in the extra $$$!

Shame on WTB for allowing them to go unchecked!

 

[Carlos269]

As it is a subjective hobby, I agree with you that each person is entitled to his/her opinion.

By the way Ron, I was not thinking of you or your system when I wrote those words; so don’t take it personal because I was not implying anything. I have literally traveled all over the world and have listened to some highly regarded systems that were very underwhelming, to put it nicely. I have spent time in Shanghai listening to some of the worlds most expensive systems and can tell you that money can’t buy you love.

 

[the sound of Tao]

As it is a subjective hobby, I agree with you that each person is entitled to his/her opinion.

and just as entitled to his/her arrogance as well

 

[Ron Resnick]

By the way Ron, I was not thinking of you or your system when I wrote those words; so don’t take it personal

Thank you, but please know that I did not think you were. I would hope it is pretty clear by now that I don't take any of this personally. (I get upset only if I don't like the sound of my system.)

I responded only because I recoil when I see the suggestion there is an objective "best" or an objective "correct" in this subjective hobby. I apologize if you were not, in fact, suggesting that.

 

[Ron Resnick]

IMO, the majority of the Audiophile community are in denial of the truth! Most don‘t have resolving systems that may detect deficiencies in their systems. Ron, do you? If you don’t - and you don't - then your opinion is meaningless!

Many audiophiles, esp. dealers, post lies.They merely desire to convince individuals on WTB that they have the “best“ system to make some additional $$$! Marketing is why they are on WTB! Some owners and dealers on forums will go to extremes to support their lies! Why? To rack-in the extra $$$!

Shame on WTB for allowing them to go unchecked!

I do not understand to which point this rant relates.

Trying to interpret it as best I can:

1) Your reference to the "truth" suggests that you do not accept that this is a subjective hobby.

2) I don't have a stereo system for the purpose of detecting deficiencies in the stereo system. "Deficiency detection" is not one of the four primary sonic objectives of high-end audio we (I?) often discuss.

3) I would be quite upset if dealers posted lies on WBF. Please feel free to catalog these lies and include the evidence that they are lies.

 

[dcc]

One of the concerns is that they are many "industry experts" who are not disclosing their industry affiliation and this is a breach with the TOS. WBF has been adamant at reminding all members about the TOS and the intellectual property of the content but has failed in enforcing strict adherence of the very same TOS by many members.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Correct.

And then you wonder why i never read your magazines , most is simply hyped misinformation to me.
If i put a high resolving coherent good smaller speaker design in a not too big a room i can get fantastic sound.
The speakers can be 10 years old as well , it doesnt matter if its a good design
The industry has evolved for a large part into high end looking / shiny watch type creations , and threw SQ overboard.

 

[PeterA]

And then you wonder why i never read your magazines , most is simply hyped misinformation to me.
If i put a high resolving coherent good smaller speaker in a not too big a room i can get fantastic sound.
The speakers can be 10 years old as well , it doesnt matter if its a good design
The industry has evolved for a large part into high end looking / shiny watch type creations , and threw SQ overboard.

Great topic for a new thread.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Great topic for a new thread.

And there is a technical reason for it too .
Speaker membranes have got fancier / are made out of modern composites , but are they better / more natural sounding then paper ?
Speaker X overs are still made out of coils caps and resistors iow not much has changed there .
Speaker housings have gotten fancier and are made of modern composites but some claim it makes the sound dead .
( Not by me by the way i like it )

So we can conclude that in general not much has changed besides the use of fancy high end materials in high end ( cone speaker ) designs.
A lot of marketing is done solely based on the use off high tech materials but since high end audio is not a watch industry , obviously something is missing here


Motor systems are still based on the good old magnet / voice principle , so regarding cone speakers not much has changed.

Okay a bit of refinement in the best examples

 

[Robert Young]

And there is a technical reason for it too .
Speaker membranes have got fancier / are made out of modern composites , but are they better / more natural sounding then paper ?
Speaker X overs are still made out of coils caps and resistors iow not much has changed there .
Speaker housings have gotten fancier and are made of modern composites but some claim it makes the sound dead .
( Not by me by the way i like it )

So we can conclude that in general not much has changed besides the use of fancy high end materials in high end ( cone speaker ) designs.
A lot of marketing is done solely based on the use off high tech materials but since high end audio is not a watch industry , obviously something is missing here


Motor systems are still based on the good old magnet / voice principle regarding cone speakers not much changed

So your rather beautiful speakers, which cost near $50,000/pair, are not really any different from expensive speakers of the past?

(Unlike not a few of you, I consider $50,000 to be expensive, but I also don't want to dismiss either their value or quality. They just happen to be expensive in my world.)

 

[andromedaaudio]

So your rather beautiful speakers, which cost near $50,000/pair, are not really any different from expensive speakers of the past?

No its just refined tech based on good old principles .
The housing material is on the market since the 1950 s .
If a speaker manufacturer brings out a mk 2 version every 2 years they havent thought out the first model very well dont you think . .
It makes you wonder what they are doing If they need to change the FR balance again and again , a lot of it is marketing.
If speaker membranes already all move in phase then there simply is not an enormous amount that can be improved .
(Apart from going bigger for a bigger room )
Only a bit of refinement thats it mostly .
Now if a manufacturer would discover a complete new way of converting electrical energy into air motion that would be something else

 

[Verastarr]

Agree with OCD on Playback and vinyl. What bugs me about Playback is they won't be at AXPONA.

Hi Chuck, thats because between myself and Europe/Asia we sell them out.. The last thing they want now is more orders.. AXPONA would threaten to bring more demand... and unless we want them to double their price like other MFGs do when they get popular, we must back off on promotion.. So no show.... I agree with the choice..