Social Media and High End Audio

[andromedaaudio]

Another example :

People who are into Horn loudspeakers and know a lot about them speak very highly of the VITAVOX S2 midrange unit .
From what i understood people liked it so much that they started manufacturing them again .
iirc Peter has the old version im not sure
Good old English workmanship :

Deco Audio Drive Units

moving magnet and moving coil stereo cartridges

www.decoaudio.com

 

[Audire]

1) Your reference to the "truth" suggests that you do not accept that this is a subjective hobby.

Why can’t a subjective hobby have “truth” in it? Are there no truths on WTB? Are there no truth tellers on WTB?

2) I don't have a stereo system for the purpose of detecting deficiencies in the stereo system. "Deficiency detection" is not one of the four primary sonic objectives of high-end audio we (I?) often discuss.

Half the reason this forum exists is to discuss deficiencies in products we hear. While you may call them differences as opposed to deficiencies, we each enjoy one thing more than another. Once you begin saying product 1 is more resolving, et. al. than product 2, you are pointing out what you consider to be perceived deficiencies in product 2. Therefore, we hear what I would term as a deficiency in one product as compared to another.

We discuss audio rooms pointing out even the size of them and the materials used to construct them so we can remove perceived deficiencies from what we hear. We speak about speaker placement, vibration of TTs, etc. Isn’t a primary objective of audiophiles to improve their systems to a point of absolute contentment? To do so we must remove any perceived deficiencies from our systems.

Audiophiles speak about deficiencies all the time.

3) I would be quite upset if dealers posted lies on WBF. Please feel free to catalog these lies and include the evidence that they are lies.

Besides the obvious that dealers are on WTB to sell stuff and they often use exaggeration to do so. In my book exaggerations are lies. Look at the MoFi debacle. Many here still defend them!

Even WTB itself pushes some brands over others. Why? WTB isn’t just a forum, it’s an advertising business! Someone else has already stated it, but WTB use to be different before they became so involved in advertising. IMO, to some extent WTB has lost its way.

The real question is where does the exaggeration end and the truth begin!

 

[Robert Young]

Another example :

People who are into Horn loudspeakers and know a lot about them speak very highly of the VITAVOX S2 midrange unit .
From what i understood people liked it it so much they started manufacturing them again .
So much for improvement , iirc Peter has the old version im not sure
Good old English workmanship :

Deco Audio Drive Units

moving magnet and moving coil stereo cartridges

www.decoaudio.com

There's a huge difference (to me at least) between what constitutes "preference" and what constitutes an "improvement" in objective performance.

If there are no technical improvements other than inert cabinet materials, why do your speakers cost $50,000? I'm trying to get at the issue you have with the concept of advancement, whether game-changing or incremental.

 

[Verastarr]

Mike,

i'll take a piece of this.

--bring your Playback Designs over and we will do a direct head to head with my Wadax. i'm sure the Playback Designs is really fine digital. not dissing it. but that is the first step. we both have our opinions which is all they are until we do the compare. done that compare with the MSB Select II, others have done it with other digital top levels. not seen it done with the Playbacks. but all the others only had one result.

---then we will go direct from the winner to my vinyl. which will be superior to the digital.

---i know how that goes as i do it every day. and the vinyl when directly compared wins 95% of the time and it's not close on the better pressings (70% of my 12,000 pressings).

what good will 24 track 2 inch do you? not relevant for our purposes other than for a door stop.

some of my vinyl beats some of my tape. you gotta listen case by case. the tape has to be very good to beat a top level pressing.

as far as tape, know the Studer, know the Doshi, know the Flux Magnetic heads, prefer my hot rodded ATR-102 with Flux Magnetic heads and the MR 70 pre's. on my better tapes it is superior to vinyl, but on many tapes the best vinyl is better or different/equal. only had the ATR-MR 70 for a short time and still need to do more compares, certainly this level tape performance is higher than my 3 Studer A-820's with the King Cello. might prefer your tape set-up too to what i had before. probably.

love my vinyl, and i have my references too.

we can agree to disagree. but bluster does not replace experience. vinyl kicks ass. in a system with top level references for all the formats.

sounds like you need to upgrade your vinyl reference. it is not cutting it.

as far as MoFi and Playbacks, i get that. i know Andreas Koch, he has been a guest in my home. brilliant guy. i owned the first Playback Design retail unit back in 2005. it was my digital reference for 9 years. i respect that Andreas is a dsd expert, and that MoFi uses that for mastering. makes sense. but it's not proof of what is the best sounding dacs and servers. the recent MoFi pressings i own from the last 10 years which include the quad dsd step, are pretty 'meh' sounding. so whatever they are doing, not my cup of tea. i did hear the Playback Designs at the last Axpona and was impressed by what i heard. it certainly is very good. but it's not vinyl in respect to my reference for vinyl. maybe yours.

and if you really cannot hear a difference between the Playback Designs digital and the tape....well....er......something is not right somewhere. maybe the tape was sourced from the quad dsd file?

i do have a tape from a session where there was a quad dsd master and a 1/2" 15ips master also from the same mic feed. the tape wipes the floor with the digital in direct compare. not close. the quad dsd is very, very good....for sure. but is not the tape.

OTOH.....if i owned top level digital, jumping into vinyl or tape would be a question. the digital is good enough that you don't need analog. but analog does go to another level with the better media. but it's a hobby, and does not need to make sense, if we are having more fun.

Hi Mike,
Thank you very much for the invite. I will absolutely take you up on this. You are sort of the poster guy for "Best system in the World" so I am enthusiastic about the chance to listen to such a system, since I feel I build these systems for people. I am consistently let down by audio show systems.. On the flipside, I open my home and hosting for you to visit and listen here in ATL. Perhaps you can visit Lee and others here. I think once you heard my rig, you would understand my bravado in how I speak and after getting to know me, my resentment for the industry and the clownshow it has become in my opinion. (are YOU attending AXPONA? )
As far as vinyl... I made a conscious decision to skip it all together.. I dont own Vinyl piece number one and every one of my interests besides HiFi is outdoors.. Im an outside adventurer.. HiFi is for Night time and inclement weather mostly. The last thing I want is another arm of my system giving me anxiety and keeping me inside away from nature and the sun. FAR too many variables in the Vinyl setup... Nobody will convince me to engage in this tail chasing (until its tweaked) for years on end, much less the time and expense of collecting 12,000 pieces of archaic media just because I think I can squeek out an incremental improvement on the best pressings. Not worth my time.... I have better things to accomplish.. Im in this to enjoy MUSIC.. not SOUND. Nature kills anything we do inside as far as sound is concerned anyways. This is folly trying to recreate the natural world and acoustic instruments..
My tape collection is for Cred and comparison..No way I would want an 820... for what ?? My friend has 2 of them.. If this is what I "Need" to get good sound, put me in the ground... Im missing the point of music...Im far too caught up in incremental improvements on some recordings not all of them.. This hobby can become utter neuroses and my name "OCD HiFi Guy" is me poking fun at how silly the hobby is.. The ridiculous stuff we consider important other than family and friends.
So Im telling new people that they dont need Vinyl for great sound. Im not selling vinyl, TT's or Arms, Carts, headphones or Vacuum tubes.. You can think of me as a 12 step program for Audiophile Neuroses & Addiction. I reduce my earning potential in order to provide trouble free connection to the music with a low "squirrel factor".. I dont think its good karma for me to burden people with our sickness. If they want to go there, all the power to them, but Im not going to be Louis Cypher taking them there. Im here to help them avoid the quagmire. As long as they are happier than ever and connecting with the music along with family and friends then my job is complete. Ive helped to improve their quality of life. Now lets sit by the campfire and play acoustic guitar and sing songs.. Maybe we fish and hike tomorrow. Perhaps we go sailing or scuba dive.. How about we write songs and CREATE music ?? LOL. What a thought , eh ?
Well, I look forward to meeting you.... perhaps AXPONNA ??
Thanks for your reply...

 

[andromedaaudio]

f there are no technical improvements other than inert cabinet materials, why do your speakers cost $50,000?

Go try to construct a speaker made of 40 mm HPL and add up the cost

Made by a professional company ( so that includes CAD design /CNC machining / high Gloss Paint job.
Machined bass pipes made of high grade alu alloy , Finite element classic stainless steel footers 8 pieces .
Duelund caps , the rest of all the drive units Scanspeak / ETON
Transport cases .
I havent even included the cost of measuring equipment etc

Add up the distibutor / dealer margin/ consumer tax , ..... and then we talk again

 

[Verastarr]

You are a major participant in this problem.

Perhaps you should follow your Heart...

 

[PeterA]

I do not understand to which point this rant relates.

Trying to interpret it as best I can:

1) Your reference to the "truth" suggests that you do not accept that this is a subjective hobby.

2) I don't have a stereo system for the purpose of detecting deficiencies in the stereo system. "Deficiency detection" is not one of the four primary sonic objectives of high-end audio we (I?) often discuss.

3) I would be quite upset if dealers posted lies on WBF. Please feel free to catalog these lies and include the evidence that they are lies.

Ron, I think the hobby is both subjective and objective. It is subjective in the sense that we perceive through our own senses what we hear and we make judgements based on that. It is objective because some things can be measured and because there can be enough consensus of subjective opinions to be considered true.

One example is dynamics. We can all listen to a system and assess its dynamics. If everyone who hears a particular system agrees that it is extremely dynamic compared to other systems at the show, it is reasonable to conclude that that system is in fact very dynamic and not just one's subjective opinion.

There are certainly some truths in the hobby. Consider low frequency extension. Is a systems extension in a given room, subjective or objective? I would argue the latter. Confirmation can come from both subjective observation and objective measurements.

Stating the hobby is only subjective implies that one's opinion is all that matters. Anything goes. Sure, that makes us all feel good. The problem is that we agree and inherently know that some systems are better than others, and that some opinions that are based on superior experience and knowledge have more value than other opinions. The reality is that not everyone gets a trophy. The name of your website kind of says it all, does it not?

 

[Elliot G.]

Go try to construct a speaker made of 40 mm HPL and add up the cost

Made by a professional company ( so that includes CAD design /CNC machining / high Gloss Paint job.
Machined bass pipes made of high grade alu alloy , Finite element classic stainless footers 8 pieces .
Duelund caps , the rest of all the drive units Scanspeak / ETON
Transport cases .
I havent even included the cost of measuring equipment etc

Add up the distibutor / dealer margin/ consumer tax , ..... and then we talk again

don't forget marketing and advertising, insurance, freight, warranty, review samples , show costs....etc.

 

[andromedaaudio]

And of course you need shops / dealers .
First of all who in their right mind is gonna buy a product that costs 10 K or more unheard straight from a factory .....
Nobody

 

[wil]

….. The last thing they want now is more orders..

You heard it here folks. To paraphrase:

“Playback Designs begs of you to please refrain from calling us or our dealers to purchase or place an order for our products. We are much too busy, and to be honest, we are simply drowning in cash.”

 

[Elliot G.]

And of course you need shops / dealers .
First of all who in their right mind is gonna buy a product that costs 10 K or more unheard straight from a factory .....
Nobody

everything has gotten way more expensive over the last few years.
Our freight costs have doubled. Just one quick example last year the trip to Munich via airplane cost less than 1500 round trip this year almost 2600 for the exact same thing.
Our room at Axpona and everyone rooms at Axpona in 2024 will be 20 percent higher . This we already know.
FYI our costs this year to do Axpona will be over 25000. NO BS just the truth.

 

[Bobvin]

No its just refined tech based on good old principles .
The housing material is on the market since the 1950 s .
If a speaker manufacturer brings out a mk 2 version every 2 years they havent thought out the first model very well dont you think . .
It makes you wonder what they are doing If they need to change the FR balance again and again , a lot of it is marketing.
If speaker membranes already all move in phase then there simply is not an enormous amount that can be improved .
(Apart from going bigger for a bigger room )
Only a bit of refinement thats it mostly .
Now if a manufacturer would discover a complete new way of converting electrical energy into air motion that would be something else

I do believe the BAYZ radial speaker is one such new design. I will be in the BAYZ room with Zoltan Bay this weekend and hope to learn a lot more about the actual workings of his design, the nitty gritty as it were. I do know it is a fantastic sounding incredibly coherent speaker.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Hi Mike,
Thank you very much for the invite. I will absolutely take you up on this. You are sort of the poster guy for "Best system in the World" so I am enthusiastic about the chance to listen to such a system, since I feel I build these systems for people. I am consistently let down by audio show systems..

game on. PM me and we can work out the details.

On the flipside, I open my home and hosting for you to visit and listen here in ATL. Perhaps you can visit Lee and others here. I think once you heard my rig, you would understand my bravado in how I speak and after getting to know me, my resentment for the industry and the clownshow it has become in my opinion. (are YOU attending AXPONA? )

i have a conflict business meeting on the East Coast, so won't be at Axpona. thanks for the invite. not been in Atlanta for a decade or so, but if i do i will try to connect.

As far as vinyl... I made a conscious decision to skip it all together.. I dont own Vinyl piece number one and every one of my interests besides HiFi is outdoors.. Im an outside adventurer.. HiFi is for Night time and inclement weather mostly.

i'm a listener. 30 hours a week. it's what i do. i work 6 days a week, and have no grandkids. been married 49 years. maybe when i'm retired soon some of my other interests will take more of my time now spent at work. maybe some adventures. biking, hiking, maybe boating. where i live it's out my back door (except the boating, 30 miles or so to ocean access, Alaska close enough).

The last thing I want is another arm of my system giving me anxiety and keeping me inside away from nature and the sun. FAR too many variables in the Vinyl setup... Nobody will convince me to engage in this tail chasing (until its tweaked) for years on end, much less the time and expense of collecting 12,000 pieces of archaic media just because I think I can squeek out an incremental improvement on the best pressings. Not worth my time.... I have better things to accomplish.. Im in this to enjoy MUSIC.. not SOUND. Nature kills anything we do inside as far as sound is concerned anyways. This is folly trying to recreate the natural world and acoustic instruments..

i will just dial down my gut reaction and say that you are wrong and leave it at that......being dismissive toward vinyl is unfortunate. but as i said in my previous post, vinyl is not for everyone. and vinyl is a commitment to media, even more than to gear. and i agree digital is so easy. but i would say you are not serving your customers well to not be in that game and able to give them a balanced viewpoint. and judging digital without solid vinyl leaves something out of the picture.

My tape collection is for Cred and comparison..No way I would want an 820... for what ?? My friend has 2 of them.. If this is what I "Need" to get good sound, put me in the ground... Im missing the point of music...Im far too caught up in incremental improvements on some recordings not all of them..

my A-820's are gone now, replaced by the Ampex's. but i was lucky to have a local Studer expert so never had any issues that were serious. owned them for 15 years.

my tape is for enjoyment. but yes, also to have a system reference over time. it does calibrate things. but so does vinyl with the much greater musical reach. but i absolutely value my extended listening times with vinyl and tape. and even with 250 quality tape titles i would get bored quickly without vinyl. but that's my personal view. YMMV.

This hobby can become utter neuroses and my name "OCD HiFi Guy" is me poking fun at how silly the hobby is.. The ridiculous stuff we consider important other than family and friends.
So Im telling new people that they dont need Vinyl for great sound. Im not selling vinyl, TT's or Arms, Carts, headphones or Vacuum tubes.. You can think of me as a 12 step program for Audiophile Neuroses & Addiction. I reduce my earning potential in order to provide trouble free connection to the music with a low "squirrel factor".. I dont think its good karma for me to burden people with our sickness. If they want to go there, all the power to them, but Im not going to be Louis Cypher taking them there. Im here to help them avoid the quagmire. As long as they are happier than ever and connecting with the music along with family and friends then my job is complete. Ive helped to improve their quality of life. Now lets sit by the campfire and play acoustic guitar and sing songs.. Maybe we fish and hike tomorrow. Perhaps we go sailing or scuba dive.. How about we write songs and CREATE music ?? LOL. What a thought , eh ?

i live in the mountains. have a 4000 foot 'hill' behind my house, and 2 elk herds that roam the hill side i live on. a lifestyle choice.

you gotta be you, go for it!

Well, I look forward to meeting you.... perhaps AXPONNA ??
Thanks for your reply...

sorry to miss you. enjoy Axpona.

 

[Verastarr]

I just want to note that you dispute Wilson speakers being a time machine, yet you have never been to my house and heard the Alexia Vs.

Hi Lee, I'd LOVE to hear Wilsons doing anything other than Analytical soulless HiFi sound... I just heard the Chronosonics... Not impressed.... Please ... I must hear them well done so I may give them a fair shake before totally closing the coffin on them...

 

[Verastarr]

You heard it here folks. To paraphrase:

“Playback Designs begs of you to please refrain from calling us or our dealers to purchase or place an order for our products. We are much too busy, and to be honest, we are simply drowning in cash.”

Wil, thats a foolish reply... Stop putting words where you have no business doing so. Small boutique purveyors of bespoke quality products can NOT produce product the way widget stampers can. Want a McIntosh ?? all day long in every city of the world ... and it will probably be discounted as a bonus. If a Boutique MFG is at peak capacity and sold out 3 months in advance all year and does NOT wish to increase the price to trim demand (what MOST companies do), then the reasonable thing to do is NOT promote. Nobody said they dont want business as you incorrectly state....

I honestly cant believe Im teaching this to an adult... perhaps Im being too assumptive...

Im guessing youd rather have them double the price so they would need to promote the product harder at AXPONA... ??? Do you even understand your reasoning and how defunct it is ?? You represent the mentality that has driven this industry into the stratosphere from a cost standpoint.. Way to go...

 

[andromedaaudio]

Hi Lee, I'd LOVE to hear Wilsons doing anything other than Analytical soulless HiFi sound... I just heard the Chronosonics... Not impressed.... Please ... I must hear them well done so I may give them a fair shake before totally closing the coffin on them...

I wasn t impressed either , i had more or less the same impression .
Unfortunately i missed the other XVX set up with VTL last year in munich .
But if everything goes as planned i ll hear em this year again in Munich

 

[Robert Young]

Go try to construct a speaker made of 40 mm HPL and add up the cost

Made by a professional company ( so that includes CAD design /CNC machining / high Gloss Paint job.
Machined bass pipes made of high grade alu alloy , Finite element classic stainless steel footers 8 pieces .
Duelund caps , the rest of all the drive units Scanspeak / ETON
Transport cases .
I havent even included the cost of measuring equipment etc

Add up the distibutor / dealer margin/ consumer tax , ..... and then we talk again

I understand these costs. I design and fabricate bespoke items. Once all your costs are figured out, i would venture that you are pricing primarily for the marketplace.

we can talk again when you can actually defend your pricing in the context of your no-improvement position.

 

[wil]

Wil, thats a foolish reply... Stop putting words where you have no business doing so. Small boutique purveyors of bespoke quality products can NOT produce product the way widget stampers can. Want a McIntosh ?? all day long in every city of the world ... and it will probably be discounted as a bonus. If a Boutique MFG is at peak capacity and sold out 3 months in advance all year and does NOT wish to increase the price to trim demand (what MOST companies do), then the reasonable thing to do is NOT promote. Nobody said they dont want business as you incorrectly state....

I honestly cant believe Im teaching this to an adult... perhaps Im being too assumptive...

Im guessing youd rather have them double the price so they would need to promote the product harder at AXPONA... ??? Do you even understand your reasoning and how defunct it is ?? You represent the mentality that has driven this industry into the stratosphere from a cost standpoint.. Way to go...

Just poking fun at your dealer hype. It’s irresistible!

Of course PD is not actually turning down orders even though your first statement, as their global top dealer, literally reads: “The last thing they want is more orders.”

Many manufacturers become backlogged for various reasons, but they don’t stop taking deposits on orders.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I understand these costs. I design and fabricate bespoke items. Once all your costs are figured out, i would venture that you are pricing primarily for the marketplace.

we can talk again when you can actually defend your pricing in the context of your no-improvement position.

We can talk now no problem , Im telling it like it is .
Off course the price includes a profit after taxes
I can invent a whole BS story to hike up the price but i m not that type a guy .
If you would see the speakers in person im sure there are no complaints about build quality / fit Finish at that pricepoint , SQ wise there is always a debate in audio

But since you apparently design for Bespoke please include your business affiliation in your signature .
So we can get an idea as to what you bring to the market place and for what price

 

[Ron Resnick]

Hi Lee, I'd LOVE to hear Wilsons doing anything other than Analytical soulless HiFi sound... I just heard the Chronosonics... Not impressed.... Please ... I must hear them well done so I may give them a fair shake before totally closing the coffin on them...

I remain baffled by the ubiquitousness of D'Agostino of on Alexx V and on XVX. Please hear the XVX driven by big tubes -- ARC 750/VAC 450/VTL Siegfried II -- and see if you still feel (ah, hear) the same way.