Solar Cell electricity effect on Audio???
- Thread starter amadeus
- Start date
Admittedly not too knowledgeable regarding the EE side of this discussion, but I do have a large solar installation (63 panels w/micro-inverters). I also hear no degradation of sound. I am in the position to compare (as most solar customers are) the sound when the home is generating its own power vs. the electric company feed during no-light intervals.
In my mind, the questions might be:
1. Do micro-inverters sound “better” because they are designed to handle much less wattage than a large inverter? Of course, part quality & manufacturing are variables as well.
2. What type(s) of noise is present in a typical solar system that is not present in the power company feed, and vice versa? Are any of the identified noises more deleterious to sound quality than others?
3. Are solar components and installations from various vendors equal in noise, or are there some superior brands/companies?
I have the Sunpower panels (like Steve) which have the longest warranty and the least measured degradation over time. Another advantage of micro-inverters not mentioned is that your system continues to make power if one or more panels fail, whereas a single-inverter system shuts down if a single panel fails.
Perhaps it’s our local regulations, but grid-tied customers (like myself) will find that their solar system shuts down if there is a power failure from the electric company: they don’t want power being sent into the grid when their technicians attempt to repair the lines, etc for safety.
Lee
In my mind, the questions might be:
1. Do micro-inverters sound “better” because they are designed to handle much less wattage than a large inverter? Of course, part quality & manufacturing are variables as well.
2. What type(s) of noise is present in a typical solar system that is not present in the power company feed, and vice versa? Are any of the identified noises more deleterious to sound quality than others?
3. Are solar components and installations from various vendors equal in noise, or are there some superior brands/companies?
I have the Sunpower panels (like Steve) which have the longest warranty and the least measured degradation over time. Another advantage of micro-inverters not mentioned is that your system continues to make power if one or more panels fail, whereas a single-inverter system shuts down if a single panel fails.
Perhaps it’s our local regulations, but grid-tied customers (like myself) will find that their solar system shuts down if there is a power failure from the electric company: they don’t want power being sent into the grid when their technicians attempt to repair the lines, etc for safety.
Lee
Do be aware, when your solar is running, your also connected to the grid. It's not like a sunny day means your running on solar power. It means your electrical system is being supplemented by solar and pushing some electrons back onto the grid. And its not like water. All the grid noise is still heard even when your producing more than your using. The ground plain is the same. The only time your off grid is when you have a battery backup and you turn off the main.
Thanks for the feedback Lee. I will call Sunpower and see if an engineer can address some technical questions. I oddly feel I have hit a road block with others. They don't want to talk about it. Only one which proudly publishes their data on power quality.
Thanks for the feedback Lee. I will call Sunpower and see if an engineer can address some technical questions. I oddly feel I have hit a road block with others. They don't want to talk about it. Only one which proudly publishes their data on power quality.
Had my PV supplier get in touch with the people from Schneider with respect to inverter noise. After reading all the feed back and comment on this issue I wanted to make sure that I wouldn't have a problem for my music room. We are off grid.
After waiting for two weeks to get a reply, the word was that I should or may need to install an Equi=Tech or a Torus Isolation transformer. Hmmm another 15k .................
After waiting for two weeks to get a reply, the word was that I should or may need to install an Equi=Tech or a Torus Isolation transformer. Hmmm another 15k .................
Does anyone have any interest in a large battery bank such as a Sonnen with a quality inverter that would provide isolated power to a subpanel feeing audio. It can also be configured to power refers, lights and computers in a power outage. I'm wondering if there is a market or if its more daydreaming by audiophiles.
A big issue with any power supply device is that they are intrinsically not neutral - they have a sound signature. And IMHO we have to listen in our systems orf have faith in it to know if it is appropriate to our system and preference.
Curiously, most times people seem to prefer what technically seems the less performing just considering mains related aspects, such as noise, distortion or impedance of line.
Curiously, most times people seem to prefer what technically seems the less performing just considering mains related aspects, such as noise, distortion or impedance of line.
I think the demand would be depending on how hassle free this would work and obviously on the price
What capacity (kWh) would such a battery bank have typically?
Since most power systems , solar included create noise. Having said this how well can your audio devices filter to have a non result in sound degradation. I don’t know Steve but I trust his ears in that if he feels the results are fine it is. we each think endlessly on how to make our systems better. I think if we just enjoyed the music more we just be better off.
me I’m on an endless journey
but I do feel micro inverters are the way to go on less noise.
regarding dc on the power grid it’s real There are ways to lower it but no matter what method is chosen it does slow current flow and this is why we hear a less dynamic sound. now if one uses low power amps example SET the gain might exceed the loss.
on a high power setup one would need huge caps and chokes not very practical.
i can say there is far less if one uses 220 over 120 as most of the dc offset or sign wave distortion is 120 volt devices.
I have converted amps from 120 to 220. I can say every amp sounds better at 220 over 120 volt. why is it just less dc offset I doubt it. I think it goes back to why less current sounds better then high current on the input windings.
me I’m on an endless journey
but I do feel micro inverters are the way to go on less noise.
regarding dc on the power grid it’s real There are ways to lower it but no matter what method is chosen it does slow current flow and this is why we hear a less dynamic sound. now if one uses low power amps example SET the gain might exceed the loss.
on a high power setup one would need huge caps and chokes not very practical.
i can say there is far less if one uses 220 over 120 as most of the dc offset or sign wave distortion is 120 volt devices.
I have converted amps from 120 to 220. I can say every amp sounds better at 220 over 120 volt. why is it just less dc offset I doubt it. I think it goes back to why less current sounds better then high current on the input windings.
I agree on the noise. Inverters have a very nice sine wave. But they operate around 60khertz. High freq noise. And whether your gear can handle that is at question. And yes, even the battery type has a sonic signature. A business partner has a Stromtank in his system. Its a battery and inverter. When disconnected from the grid, its shocking how good the power is. I assume it has a filter matrix that cleans the power supply.
It go me thinking of residential scale. So many people want backup power. A 9 to 20 KW battery would run critical appliances for a couple days. And brown out undervoltage occurence in places like Calif would not impact your audio rack. But hey, its just a floating thought.
Al, totally agree 240 is the way to go. Electrical equipment seems to like high voltage, low current over low voltage, high current. Cooler running and faster power delivery. I may ask if my amps can be retapped since they are from Europe.
It go me thinking of residential scale. So many people want backup power. A 9 to 20 KW battery would run critical appliances for a couple days. And brown out undervoltage occurence in places like Calif would not impact your audio rack. But hey, its just a floating thought.
Al, totally agree 240 is the way to go. Electrical equipment seems to like high voltage, low current over low voltage, high current. Cooler running and faster power delivery. I may ask if my amps can be retapped since they are from Europe.
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Well I have 30 x 360 watt panels each with their own microinverter I make enough electricity every day that I rarely take from the grid but rather give back to the grid. There is no noise whatsoever that I hear in my system and I use a very basic network
I'm not doubting that. So why won't 1 large inverter have the same unnoticeable impact? I don't know if they do or don't. That's all I'm saying. Which would mean a battery backup might work with audio.
But. There is a balance between the battery, Inverter and current draw. I was told if they are sized wrong they do make all sorts of distortion.
My company, Audio-ultra is getting bigger. As we grow we are taking on equipment and people. We will soon have scopes to analyze your home power. I will be able to put to rest the question of, does my solar pollute my power.
Now, if I do find harmonics and other noise, the question will then be, just how bad is it, and, is your equipment tolerant of it. And are there filters that repair the power, without ruining the power. Its going to get interesting.
Now, if I do find harmonics and other noise, the question will then be, just how bad is it, and, is your equipment tolerant of it. And are there filters that repair the power, without ruining the power. Its going to get interesting.
I run my whole house on solar power and use a big Sungold Power 18,000W inverter with a 54kW surge capacity running off 42kWh of LifePo4 batteries and I'm pleased to report no issues. I was concerned there would be issues with the high peak currents when I'm playing at very loud levels, but there were none.
Now it's different story if you're a HAM radio guy and do a lot of SWL. Inverters emit a lot of RF hash. I have had to mod my inverter with added in mix 31 ferrite cores and also along all cabling in and out of the inverter. Before the RFI mitigation, noise was 20 over S9 on 75m HAM band and AM radio was unlistenable. Now I can listen to 75m HAM with only moderate buzz at some specific frequencies and no noise at all on 40m and above.
Perhaps it is because I have old ears, but I have photovoltaic cells and inverter on the roof and crawl space (respectively) above my listening room and I do not hear a bit of hum or other harmful effects on my music playback from it whatsoever (and I clear >£2000 a year in tax-free FIT payments from them as well).
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
I haven’t had an electric bill in almost 5 years. My system uses a microinverter with each panel. There is no SQ change using solar
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
The beauty of solar is to create a total house solution with the use of batteries in your garage. Taking what is produced and first charge fully ones garage batteries, allows for completely being off the grid when there s no sun. Here in Southern California we use an NEMS (net energy metering system) which basically measures hourly use and when the sun goes down, if you don't have battery back up you will pull from the grid even though during the day time hours I am making 150% of what I use daily BUT without a battery , the excess goes back to the grid. Once a year you get a true up for all of the energy you have sent to the grid. My true up was last month and I received a credit of just over $800. Each month when I receive a bill it shows that I might pull 8-10 Kwh from the grid and I get charged for this BUT it is deducted from my credit from what I produce. AS stated I make at least 150% of demand and I never deplete my credit reserve but only add to it. Having said that the use of a few garage wall batteries with a flick of a switch provide electricity for the rest of the day as well as charging your EV's. Anyone putting in solar now should seriously consider a total home solution. Where I live, we are serviced by the most expensive electrical utility company in the nation. To wit, they buy my surplus for $0.03/Kwh and sell it back top us during on peak hours for $0.45/kwh The goal for everyone is to be completely off the grid and be self sufficient. And once again the SQ listening to music is simply superb. Don't let anyone tell you differently. Finally I have been asked what if any maintenance is required for your roof grid. I have a guy whose business locally is to get up on. the roof and clean all of the panels and provide before and after photos. Also it is not uncommon for birds to nest under the panels and although I have never had a nest , he does remove them when they are empty. Others have asked about damage to the panels during dust or hail storms. If you do your due diligence properly, current top tier companies such as the one I use (Sun Power) provide a 25 year warranty their panels. We live on a golf course and have suffered many broken windows but never once an impact concussion from a golf ball. I chose Sun Power for several reasons
1. Oldest solar company in the USA
2. All panels and parts are made in the USA
3. Their panels are so good that they are the ones used to power the Mars Rover and they are functioning perfectly on Mars
4. They are the only company that provides a 25 year warranty
5. Most solar panel become less efficient as they age BUT those made by Sun Power are rated at 120% efficiency for the 25 years. IOW if a grid on ones roof equates to , for example, 10 KW, Sun Power panels produce 20% more
And most importantly do NOT use a 3rd party installer as they do not meet the standards dictated. I went Sun Power Direct and have zero regrets
1. Oldest solar company in the USA
2. All panels and parts are made in the USA
3. Their panels are so good that they are the ones used to power the Mars Rover and they are functioning perfectly on Mars
4. They are the only company that provides a 25 year warranty
5. Most solar panel become less efficient as they age BUT those made by Sun Power are rated at 120% efficiency for the 25 years. IOW if a grid on ones roof equates to , for example, 10 KW, Sun Power panels produce 20% more
And most importantly do NOT use a 3rd party installer as they do not meet the standards dictated. I went Sun Power Direct and have zero regrets
Here's the current status of my solar off grid system.
I'm adding another 7200W of new solar panels bought last Dec in about a month. The upper left SC48120 charge controller is allocated for that. The big blue unit at lower right is 195lbs of transformer and contains the sinewave inverter. In terms of low order harmonics that would affect audio, it's actually cleaner than utility power, which has a slightly clipped waveform.
With enough solar capacity, it is possible to remain off grid when it is cloudy and even raining.
I'm adding another 7200W of new solar panels bought last Dec in about a month. The upper left SC48120 charge controller is allocated for that. The big blue unit at lower right is 195lbs of transformer and contains the sinewave inverter. In terms of low order harmonics that would affect audio, it's actually cleaner than utility power, which has a slightly clipped waveform.
With enough solar capacity, it is possible to remain off grid when it is cloudy and even raining.
There are many differing opinions about whole home solar and I have been looking into it for a good while.
I have been holding back because there is going to be some new tech coming very soon that utilizes GaN transistors with their much higher efficiency and operating frequency and some units look to be using them now with almost 99% efficiency.
There is a debate on Solid State micro inverters vs transformer based string vs larger solid state based string inverters( which are basically just large microinverters). I can say this, there are good versions and bad versions of all along with implementations and each type has a different set of drawbacks.
As a testbed I built for lack of better words, a battery backup generator last year to test the waters. There was an article by the High Fidelity cables guru where he built such a testbed and reviewed a few inverters. These were the high frequency switching type. I used his recommended Giandel 5kw unit with 800w of panels and a 195ah battery.
I also built an 8kw transformer based Sungoldpower low frequency unit with 18kwh of batterys as there are an equal amount of positive reviews on that type and planned that as my whole house interim backup unit.
The high frequency SS types technically have slightly higher noise but a high frequency type like most switching appliances. The low frequency transformer based units have VERY high pulse current capacity and can start very large appliances like multiple 5 ton AC units concurrently without even blinking. This is something that was in the PS Audio video regarding amplifier demands on solar and Paul's main concern regarding solar. The low frequency units have less THD than most power lines and is of a low frequency spectrum.
A key takeaway is the SS microinverters are mainly targeted for net grid metering where you really are just supplying the grid with excess energy when not needed in your home to make up for 100% on grid at night situation and using a combo of grid and solar during daylight demand. Systems are oversized by a large factor so they can compensate for the energy drawn from on grid when heavy demand is not happening during daylight and is especially important for winter days which have much less generation time. When a system is sized it is by the actual YEARLY total of KWH and calculated to compensate for the long winter nights.
Most people incorrectly think that they are running totally from solar but that simply is not the case unless you opt for very expensive huge battery banks as is common in off grid systems that use large hybrid inverters.
The power filters we tend to use should have no problems with either type however the sonic problems that people mention lies elsewhere IMO.
After lots of research and my tests I can say that a real issue is the outside wires on your home acting like antennas and pickup garbage.
Here is another key takeaway for me, Microinverters put out AC at the panel and need metal conduit all the way from the panel to the home penetration point. The other types of DC string inverters need metal conduit on the roof as well however the outside wall runs are frequently PVC which is unshielded. Some cities allow PVC for the microinverters on the non roof areas also and that may be a part of the problem.
Now comparing the 2 units I made was interesting:
Running strictly on battery, the 5kw HF type had a very low noise floor and a less wiry sound compared to powerline AC however it was lacking in snap. I attributed that to the high internal resistance of the batteries and added a 1 farad "Boomer" cap used for car audio. That helped enormously however the slight leakage of the caps and the standby consumption of that unit has more battery drain than I expected. Running with the PV array running through PVC conduit to a freestanding PV array it really sounded like regular AC. The lower noise floor was gone but it sounded familiar to what I typically get.
I got a very similar result with the big transformer based unit but much better dynamics without any added caps on the battery bank. Granted it is a massively larger battery bank. Results are pretty similar when the PV array for that one is connected as well with a degradation to regular powerline sound quality and it is a 7200w array with a lot more wires on the roof vs an 800w array. Unfortunately it is PVC conduit on the side of my house. This will be getting changed soon to metal all the way and I anticipate a bump in sonics.
Takeaway here was battery only holds performance potential gains.
Now if you do not get battery backup system or off grid system and opt for a simple net metering buyback system as is most common then you obviously cant go totally 100% solar. Also so be sure to spec all metal conduit on your install. Personally I prefer the big ass transformer based unit over the SS inverter type so far.
Bottom line is at night you are on the same ac electric grid unless you have an off grid system.
Hopefully this lends some clarity as to the in's and outs of solar and what is truly going on.
I have been holding back because there is going to be some new tech coming very soon that utilizes GaN transistors with their much higher efficiency and operating frequency and some units look to be using them now with almost 99% efficiency.
There is a debate on Solid State micro inverters vs transformer based string vs larger solid state based string inverters( which are basically just large microinverters). I can say this, there are good versions and bad versions of all along with implementations and each type has a different set of drawbacks.
As a testbed I built for lack of better words, a battery backup generator last year to test the waters. There was an article by the High Fidelity cables guru where he built such a testbed and reviewed a few inverters. These were the high frequency switching type. I used his recommended Giandel 5kw unit with 800w of panels and a 195ah battery.
I also built an 8kw transformer based Sungoldpower low frequency unit with 18kwh of batterys as there are an equal amount of positive reviews on that type and planned that as my whole house interim backup unit.
The high frequency SS types technically have slightly higher noise but a high frequency type like most switching appliances. The low frequency transformer based units have VERY high pulse current capacity and can start very large appliances like multiple 5 ton AC units concurrently without even blinking. This is something that was in the PS Audio video regarding amplifier demands on solar and Paul's main concern regarding solar. The low frequency units have less THD than most power lines and is of a low frequency spectrum.
A key takeaway is the SS microinverters are mainly targeted for net grid metering where you really are just supplying the grid with excess energy when not needed in your home to make up for 100% on grid at night situation and using a combo of grid and solar during daylight demand. Systems are oversized by a large factor so they can compensate for the energy drawn from on grid when heavy demand is not happening during daylight and is especially important for winter days which have much less generation time. When a system is sized it is by the actual YEARLY total of KWH and calculated to compensate for the long winter nights.
Most people incorrectly think that they are running totally from solar but that simply is not the case unless you opt for very expensive huge battery banks as is common in off grid systems that use large hybrid inverters.
The power filters we tend to use should have no problems with either type however the sonic problems that people mention lies elsewhere IMO.
After lots of research and my tests I can say that a real issue is the outside wires on your home acting like antennas and pickup garbage.
Here is another key takeaway for me, Microinverters put out AC at the panel and need metal conduit all the way from the panel to the home penetration point. The other types of DC string inverters need metal conduit on the roof as well however the outside wall runs are frequently PVC which is unshielded. Some cities allow PVC for the microinverters on the non roof areas also and that may be a part of the problem.
Now comparing the 2 units I made was interesting:
Running strictly on battery, the 5kw HF type had a very low noise floor and a less wiry sound compared to powerline AC however it was lacking in snap. I attributed that to the high internal resistance of the batteries and added a 1 farad "Boomer" cap used for car audio. That helped enormously however the slight leakage of the caps and the standby consumption of that unit has more battery drain than I expected. Running with the PV array running through PVC conduit to a freestanding PV array it really sounded like regular AC. The lower noise floor was gone but it sounded familiar to what I typically get.
I got a very similar result with the big transformer based unit but much better dynamics without any added caps on the battery bank. Granted it is a massively larger battery bank. Results are pretty similar when the PV array for that one is connected as well with a degradation to regular powerline sound quality and it is a 7200w array with a lot more wires on the roof vs an 800w array. Unfortunately it is PVC conduit on the side of my house. This will be getting changed soon to metal all the way and I anticipate a bump in sonics.
Takeaway here was battery only holds performance potential gains.
Now if you do not get battery backup system or off grid system and opt for a simple net metering buyback system as is most common then you obviously cant go totally 100% solar. Also so be sure to spec all metal conduit on your install. Personally I prefer the big ass transformer based unit over the SS inverter type so far.
Bottom line is at night you are on the same ac electric grid unless you have an off grid system.
Hopefully this lends some clarity as to the in's and outs of solar and what is truly going on.
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