Solar Cell electricity effect on Audio???

[PYP]

There are many differing opinions about whole home solar and I have been looking into it for a good while.
I have been holding back because there is going to be some new tech coming very soon that utilizes GaN transistors with their much higher efficiency and operating frequency and some units look to be using them now with almost 99% efficiency.
There is a debate on Solid State micro inverters vs transformer based string vs larger solid state based string inverters( which are basically just large microinverters). I can say this, there are good versions and bad versions of all along with implementations and each type has a different set of drawbacks.

As a testbed I built for lack of better words, a battery backup generator last year to test the waters. There was an article by the High Fidelity cables guru where he built such a testbed and reviewed a few inverters. These were the high frequency switching type. I used his recommended Giandel 5kw unit with 800w of panels and a 195ah battery.
I also built an 8kw transformer based Sungoldpower low frequency unit with 18kwh of batterys as there are an equal amount of positive reviews on that type and planned that as my whole house interim backup unit.

The high frequency SS types technically have slightly higher noise but a high frequency type like most switching appliances. The low frequency transformer based units have VERY high pulse current capacity and can start very large appliances like multiple 5 ton AC units concurrently without even blinking. This is something that was in the PS Audio video regarding amplifier demands on solar and Paul's main concern regarding solar. The low frequency units have less THD than most power lines and is of a low frequency spectrum.

A key takeaway is the SS microinverters are mainly targeted for net grid metering where you really are just supplying the grid with excess energy when not needed in your home to make up for 100% on grid at night situation and using a combo of grid and solar during daylight demand. Systems are oversized by a large factor so they can compensate for the energy drawn from on grid when heavy demand is not happening during daylight and is especially important for winter days which have much less generation time. When a system is sized it is by the actual YEARLY total of KWH and calculated to compensate for the long winter nights.

Most people incorrectly think that they are running totally from solar but that simply is not the case unless you opt for very expensive huge battery banks as is common in off grid systems that use large hybrid inverters.

The power filters we tend to use should have no problems with either type however the sonic problems that people mention lies elsewhere IMO.
After lots of research and my tests I can say that a real issue is the outside wires on your home acting like antennas and pickup garbage.

Here is another key takeaway for me, Microinverters put out AC at the panel and need metal conduit all the way from the panel to the home penetration point. The other types of DC string inverters need metal conduit on the roof as well however the outside wall runs are frequently PVC which is unshielded. Some cities allow PVC for the microinverters on the non roof areas also and that may be a part of the problem.

Now comparing the 2 units I made was interesting:
Running strictly on battery, the 5kw HF type had a very low noise floor and a less wiry sound compared to powerline AC however it was lacking in snap. I attributed that to the high internal resistance of the batteries and added a 1 farad "Boomer" cap used for car audio. That helped enormously however the slight leakage of the caps and the standby consumption of that unit has more battery drain than I expected. Running with the PV array running through PVC conduit to a freestanding PV array it really sounded like regular AC. The lower noise floor was gone but it sounded familiar to what I typically get.

I got a very similar result with the big transformer based unit but much better dynamics without any added caps on the battery bank. Granted it is a massively larger battery bank. Results are pretty similar when the PV array for that one is connected as well with a degradation to regular powerline sound quality and it is a 7200w array with a lot more wires on the roof vs an 800w array. Unfortunately it is PVC conduit on the side of my house. This will be getting changed soon to metal all the way and I anticipate a bump in sonics.

Takeaway here was battery only holds performance potential gains.

Now if you do not get battery backup system or off grid system and opt for a simple net metering buyback system as is most common then you obviously cant go totally 100% solar. Also so be sure to spec all metal conduit on your install. Personally I prefer the big ass transformer based unit over the SS inverter type so far.

Bottom line is at night you are on the same ac electric grid unless you have an off grid system.

Hopefully this lends some clarity as to the in's and outs of solar and what is truly going on.

do you anticipate the cost of batteries will be reduced when there is more competition? Recent research indicates high prices (seemingly even with tax credits), what seems like modest power capability of batteries and, in some cases, limitations on adding batteries over time if one wants to phase the installation to spread the cost over time.

And is the research into using different materials in the battery yielding any practical benefits (that is, less expensive and scalable)?

 

[Mark (Basspig) Weiss]

The best solar power system is completely off-grid. Many poor homeowners don't realize that most of these systems being pushed by three big solar installers are grid-tied and shut down when the grid goes down.
I myself am interested in EMP-hardening, as we are not only due for the solar flare "kill shot" of 1859-levels, but all political indications point to a Russian strike with SARMAT2 missiles on the US mainland soon.
I believe the EMP will be largely common mode, so I've twisted the pairs of underground PV wiring before burial to minimize differential voltage in such event.

I've updated my solar tour video this spring after installing another 7200W array. It has been a game-changer:

Solar Update

 

[DHT4ME]

The best solar power system is completely off-grid. Many poor homeowners don't realize that most of these systems being pushed by three big solar installers are grid-tied and shut down when the grid goes down.
I myself am interested in EMP-hardening, as we are not only due for the solar flare "kill shot" of 1859-levels, but all political indications point to a Russian strike with SARMAT2 missiles on the US mainland soon.
I believe the EMP will be largely common mode, so I've twisted the pairs of underground PV wiring before burial to minimize differential voltage in such event.

I've updated my solar tour video this spring after installing another 7200W array. It has been a game-changer:

Solar Update

Sol-Ark has EMP hardened Inverters. I was thinking along similar lines as well.

 

[Mark (Basspig) Weiss]

Of course 'EMP-hardened' can be claimed, but in the event of nuclear war, all warrantees will not be honored.

 

[DetroitVinylRob]

I’m in the early stages of listening and evaluating after installing an initial 8100 kW system with Sol-Ark inverter. This is exciting. Our PVs are REC Alpha Pure, and utilize Tigo optimizers, and contrary to earlier claims (made here), SunPower is not the only panel with a 25 year warranty, these are too. Also, this inverter offers the opportunity to use basically anybody’s 48V battery. Which is hugely advantageous since the power cell market is the wild, wild west at this point in both ridiculous pricing, unproven safety, and underwhelming performance. So we don’t have our (currently considered) EG4 LLS battery banks in yet, but that’s just a plug n play away. Funny thing is Sunpower looked on Google maps and decided that we would have to cut down all our trees to the south of our house, then they would mount east/west PVs as a solution. This (non) solution was completely ridiculous and not what we would ever entertain. Be very careful with who you might consider for a solar installation and I agree with Kingrex, this is not a diy project. Though I did a lot of study and configured the system, we chose a local installer to do the technical work. We opted for ground mount with a perfectly clear view of solar south, easy to self clean, and seasonally adjustable, an absolute necessity in our region. Anyway, haven’t tried all the variants while listening yet. With grid and solar from the inverter, it sounds about the same as grid to me. Now I do employ Shunyata Denali V2s… I really don’t care to go through the hassle to disconnect them to hear the difference. They improved the grid mains so remarkably, it’s a moot point imho.

More later

I wonder if Shunyata Research has any documented experience with solar based mains power type conditions?

 

[Steve williams]

I have been all solar for 5 years and as long as your system uses micro inverters there is NO audible sonic change with solar. In fact I listen typically in the afternoon when my entire house is on the grid on my roof. I haven't had an electric bill in 5 years I have a 10.8 Kw grid on my roof

Im checking now as I type and Ive listened to my system all afternoon and just finished the basketball game as the sun is setting and I still banked an excess of 16 Kwh to the grid today.

 

[Steve williams]

I’m in the early stages of listening and evaluating after installing an initial 8100 kWh system with Sol-Ark inverter. This is exciting. Our PVs are REC Alpha Pure, and utilize Tigo optimizers, and contrary to earlier claims (made here), SunPower is not the only panel with a 25 year warranty, these are too. Also, this inverter offers the opportunity to use basically anybody’s 48V battery. Which is hugely advantageous since the power cell market is the wild, wild west at this point in both ridiculous pricing, unproven safety, and underwhelming performance. So we don’t have our (currently considered) EG4 LLS battery banks in yet, but that’s just a plug n play away. Funny thing is Sunpower looked on Google maps and decided that we would have to cut down all our trees to the south of our house, then they would mount east/west PVs as a solution. This (non) solution was completely ridiculous and not what we would ever entertain. Be very careful with who you might consider for a solar installation and I agree with Kingrex, this is not a diy project. Though I did a lot of study and configured the system, we chose a local installer to do the technical work. We opted for ground mount with a perfectly clear view of solar south, easy to self clean, and seasonally adjustable, an absolute necessity in our region. Anyway, haven’t tried all the variants while listening yet. With grid and solar from the inverter, it sounds about the same as grid to me. Now I do employ Shunyata Denali V2s… I really don’t care to go through the hassle to disconnect them to hear the difference. They improved the grid mains so remarkably, it’s a moot point imho.

More later

I wonder if Shunyata Research has any documented experience with solar based mains power type conditions?

I would strongly encourage you against a single INVERTER. The SOTA now is a micro inverter on every panel. It makes no audible sonic change. Inverters are noisy. Caveat emptor

 

[Steve williams]

I would strongly encourage you against a single INVERTER. The SOTA now is a micro inverter on every panel. It makes no audible sonic change. Inverters are noisy. Caveat emptor

the 25 year warranty is a must but the efficiencuy of each panel is the key. SunPower panels are 122% efficient.

REC solar panels vs Sunpower - A1 SolarStore

Solar panels have become a popular choice for households and businesses looking to reduce their carbon footprint and energy bills. As a result, many companies have entered the solar panel market, each with its own unique technology and selling points. Two

a1solarstore.com

 

[PYP]

I would strongly encourage you against a single INVERTER. The SOTA now is a micro inverter on every panel. It makes no audible sonic change. Inverters are noisy. Caveat emptor

Have SunPower panels and both single inverter for the panels that were installed a long time ago as well as micro inverters for the new panels. I don't hear any adverse effects on sound quality from solar power generation.

Totally agree that battery backup is still the wild west. Hopefully, that will change soon.

It is interesting to see a few new solar communities built around a central back of batteries for that community. Makes sense.

 

[DetroitVinylRob]

the 25 year warranty is a must but the efficiencuy of each panel is the key. SunPower panels are 122% efficient.

REC solar panels vs Sunpower - A1 SolarStore

Solar panels have become a popular choice for households and businesses looking to reduce their carbon footprint and energy bills. As a result, many companies have entered the solar panel market, each with its own unique technology and selling points. Two

a1solarstore.com

Steve, with all due respect, please read my comments. This isn’t a competition. And, I wrote my initial anecdotal evidence based on a system that (I already have).

So what’s 122%? A marketing sleight of hand? Yes, our solution is different from your system and possibly your belief system, but at this point it sounds very fine to my ears. And I juxtapose this to the sound I previously had before and after the Shunyata Denali V2 additions vs running purely grid mains. We will see. Though this is a discussion on a high-end audio forum, my first priority with solar power did not include audio performance as the research is not conclusive. And five years ago perhaps your decision was also not completely informed.

Often in this hobby I find and have come to the conclusion that you do not know you have noise until you eliminate it. So my posture tends to be reluctant to be too quick in saying that I don’t have some form of noise. It’s complicated. I believe you can appreciate that. Yet, so far, so good.

There are so many aspects to setting up a good working solar system. Because Sunpower did not have a complete solution for us I could not run their PVs. Their advertising may attempt to sell them as the best panel on the market, but in cost versus performance scenario I wouldn’t be so sure they are that much better than say REC’s top of the line. Now, of course it all depends when we bought into the market. I’m a new customer of it. Buying at today’s performance/cost ratio and working through a big learning curve. At this point we are confident that we made the best choice for us. Battery power will be a whole nother thing to sort out. By the way, without inverting again, how do you plan to add batteries?

 

[Steve williams]

Steve, with all due respect, please read my comments. This isn’t a competition. And, I wrote my initial anecdotal evidence based on a system that (I already have).

So what’s 122%? A marketing sleight of hand? Yes, our solution is different from your system and possibly your belief system, but at this point it sounds very fine to my ears. And I juxtapose this to the sound I previously had before and after the Shunyata Denali V2 additions vs running purely grid mains. We will see. Though this is a discussion on a high-end audio forum, my first priority with solar power did not include audio performance as the research is not conclusive. And five years ago perhaps your decision was also not completely informed.

Often in this hobby I find and have come to the conclusion that you do not know you have noise until you eliminate it. So my posture tends to be reluctant to be too quick in saying that I don’t have some form of noise. It’s complicated. I believe you can appreciate that. Yet, so far, so good.

There are so many aspects to setting up a good working solar system. Because Sunpower did not have a complete solution for us I could not run their PVs. Their advertising may attempt to sell them as the best panel on the market, but in cost versus performance scenario I wouldn’t be so sure they are that much better than say REC’s top of the line. Now, of course it all depends when we bought into the market. I’m a new customer of it. Buying at today’s performance/cost ratio and working through a big learning curve. At this point we are confident that we made the best choice for us. Battery power will be a whole nother thing to sort out. By the way, without inverting again, how do you plan to add batteries?

Agree it’s not a competition. I was trying to suggest what I know over the past 5 years. Batteries for me used to be top of my list. Not any more. In the 12 years we have lived here we have had only one brief power outage which was planned by the utility company because of high winds. It lasted a few hours only. Now with 2 EV’s in our garage I’m only interested in producing what I need and sending whatever surplus I have back to the grid to bank as a future credit. In the 5 years and now with the 2 cars for the past year I am still way in the positive. That for me is most important as our utility is the most expensive in the nation with rates at some times hitting $0.65/KWH. I’ve learned how to game the system as they have a special rate of $0.15/kwh between midnight and 0600 on weekday and until 1400 on weekends and holidays.They charge $16 per month for this. I’ve been doing this whereas my neighbors who also have EV’s charge during the day when the sun is out. They are not covering their monthly use by way of production as a result and are having monthly bills of around $100. My goal is to never have to pay them and in 5 years I haven’t. As a result I used to have batteries at the top of my list. Not any more. My point about efficiency is merely to point out that in todays technology some panels can be as low as 85-90 % efficient and many companies now produce panels that are greater than 100% efficient To me that’s good thing. My biggest concern is that many big inverters are noisy Perhaps that was the case when we bought in and todays technology it isn’t an issue. I can understand that where you live batteries are more of a necessity than where I live. In out community I would estimate that over 60% of the homes have solar with more going in on a regular basis. To my knowledge only one house in our community has batteries in their garage

 

[DetroitVinylRob]

Agree it’s not a competition. I was trying to suggest what I know over the past 5 years. Batteries for me used to be top of my list. Not any more. In the 12 years we have lived here we have had only one brief power outage which was planned by the utility company because of high winds. It lasted a few hours only. Now with 2 EV’s in our garage I’m only interested in producing what I need and sending whatever surplus I have back to the grid to bank as a future credit. In the 5 years and now with the 2 cars for the past year I am still way in the positive. That for me is most important as our utility is the most expensive in the nation with rates at some times hitting $0.65/KWH. I’ve learned how to game the system as they have a special rate of $0.15/kwh between midnight and 0600 on weekday and until 1400 on weekends and holidays.They charge $16 per month for this. I’ve been doing this whereas my neighbors who also have EV’s charge during the day when the sun is out. They are not covering their monthly use by way of production as a result and are having monthly bills of around $100. My goal is to never have to pay them and in 5 years I haven’t. As a result I used to have batteries at the top of my list. Not any more. My point about efficiency is merely to point out that in todays technology some panels can be as low as 85-90 % efficient and many companies now produce panels that are greater than 100% efficient To me that’s good thing. My biggest concern is that many big inverters are noisy Perhaps that was the case when we bought in and todays technology it isn’t an issue. I can understand that where you live batteries are more of a necessity than where I live. In out community I would estimate that over 60% of the homes have solar with more going in on a regular basis. To my knowledge only one house in our community has batteries in their garage

So many good points and many specific to different regions. This really adds to the complexity of each of our equations.

Total system efficiencies is an key part of the equation! So is energy inflation, and so are the tax credits. We tried to look at the big picture. It’s a tricky little puzzle but well worth the mental effort and upfront cost.

At our home, we not only want to shave our annual energy costs as we age, but have quite a few power outages all year and winters can be disastrous and uncomfortable without backup. My wife and I also have a deep commitment in trying to reduce our footprint. Now, I understand that is very complex and lithium etc doesn’t come without a cost to our environment and fellow humans beyond the MSRP.

 

[Steve williams]

So many good points and many specific to different regions. This really adds to the complexity of each of our equations.

Total system efficiencies is an key part of the equation! So is energy inflation, and so are the tax credits. We tried to look at the big picture. It’s a tricky little puzzle but well worth the mental effort and upfront cost.

At our home, we not only want to shave our annual energy costs as we age, but have quite a few power outages all year and winters can be disastrous and uncomfortable without backup. My wife and I also have a deep commitment in trying to reduce our footprint. Now, I understand that is very complex and lithium etc doesn’t come without a cost to our environment and fellow humans beyond the MSRP.

Agree on all points. I was highly motivated as well by the Investment Tax Credit

 

[Jim Heckman]

I've had rooftop solar here in Pennsylvania for ten years, a 21 panel system with 275w panels (the highest available at the time), yielding a 5.67 kw system, and a central inverter due to lower cost than microinverters which I considered. While I've never compared my central inverter with microinverters, I can say my system sounds great and I noticed no change before and after solar installation. I've had only one problem over the ten years with the system, a lightning strike causing replacement of the central inverter. For ten years I was selling excess electricity back to the utility (at the same rate they were charging the public), and only last month got my first electric bill due to purchase of a Tesla Model 3. I am sold on rooftop solar, although I feel the federal 30% tax credit I got with purchase was essential.

 

[Mark (Basspig) Weiss]

I've been off grid for about 2 years now, and zero issues with noise in the audio band. My only noise is on the HAM radio bands and I've cut that back about 23dB with 30 or so big type 31 ferrite chokes on the wiring in and out of the inverter, charge controllers and in the mains panel. The big LF sinewave inverter can deliver 54kW to handle any demands of my large sound system. It's been great.

 

[PYP]

Often in this hobby I find and have come to the conclusion that you do not know you have noise until you eliminate it. So my posture tends to be reluctant to be too quick in saying that I don’t have some form of noise.

That is a good conclusion. I found quite an improvement in SQ with the addition of a Denali. Still, I was suspicious that the main inverter might be adding noise. When the panels needed some maintenance (replacement of some parts that have now been improved and paid entirely by SunPower, fortunately), our solar was down for two days. No change in sound although I will admit that I expected some improvement. Once repaired, no change in sound.

 

[DetroitVinylRob]

That is a good conclusion. I found quite an improvement in SQ with the addition of a Denali. Still, I was suspicious that the main inverter might be adding noise. When the panels needed some maintenance (replacement of some parts that have now been improved and paid entirely by SunPower, fortunately), our solar was down for two days. No change in sound although I will admit that I expected some improvement. Once repaired, no change in sound.

Very good information there. Yeah, there is much to discover and learn in both pursuits.

 

[Armsan]

I've been off grid for about 2 years now, and zero issues with noise in the audio band. My only noise is on the HAM radio bands and I've cut that back about 23dB with 30 or so big type 31 ferrite chokes on the wiring in and out of the inverter, charge controllers and in the mains panel. The big LF sinewave inverter can deliver 54kW to handle any demands of my large sound system. It's been great.

I guess your inverter is a pure sine wave one, right?
I haven’t tried any of the existing possibilities yet, but in a technical point of view only, I believe that for feeding an high end music system, we must install an high end inverter too. Maybe I’m wrong but the micro inverters, DC optimisers and most inverters don’t generate a pure sine wave AC. I think for that we must go with inverters with toroidal transformers like the best models from Victron or the even better Studer Innotec. The specs of this last one, THD, voltage stability, etc, are awesome. The downside is that they are very expensive and very heavy too.

 

[DetroitVinylRob]

Here comes the sun.

Well on a good day in August here in southeast metro Detroit we are maxing our 20 REC panel performance just a bit beyond 8kW peak for much of the 8 hr aperture and with panels at 27.7 degrees from horizontal. We are facing (true) solar south (7.5 west of magnetic south +-1deg) and range our attitude from 17.7 to 47.7 seasonally. Also, with sometimes heavy snowfall in our region adjusting panel attitude up to 47.7 is necessary not only to fine tune our PV orientation to the sun, but also to let gravity assist us in keeping the panels clear and collecting. Our first full solar month bill came in at $15 and change. A little more than $150 to the plus side. With winter skies and gray days here that number cuts substantially. Not quite SoCal… if ya know what I mean.

Well, I’ve had quite a bit of time to listen both on and off of solar and can say without reservation that the SolArk inverter brings nothing in the noise spectrum that I am able to realize, just solid clean mains power.

We could not be more delighted so far

 

[Kingrex]

A good inverter makes less noise than the utility. Less than 3% with an average of 1.8%. I bet a good inverter and battery, sized properly, would best utility. I have not compared to know. But a lot of people say portable UPS like Goal Zero.and EcoFlow sound better than their utility.

If I were to install solar and batteries, I would install dedicated circuits that could be battery/inverter only.