Sonus Faber Aida vs. Wilson XLF (with the MBL 101 Extreme thrown-in for fun)

[LL21]

Steve and Marty,

Many thanks for taking the time to share your experiences with those of us who could not listen to both speakers in the same room...great reading!! I am curious about a few things:

1. Do either of you have a personal preference of one over the other based on this shoot-out plus other times you have listened to them...and why?

2. Steve - what do your instincts tell you about how much of an 'uplift' (if any) the XLF is compared to your X2 2s...and in what areas?

3. Marty - Could you expand on any thoughts you have about the Zanden amplification? Very curious as a Zanden digital owner, and also someone who nearly went for Zanden pre (went CJ GAT instead)...and considered 3 amps: Gryphon Colosseum, Lamm ML2.2 and Zanden monos. (ended up with Gryphon for variety of reasons and extremely happy)...so just curious.

Thanks again !!!

 

[marty]

micro,
That was very funny, but in fact, you aren't missing it. "Waldo" is hidden intentionally. The tall burl Biedermeir style cabinet in the front right houses the VTL 7.5 III preamp and Meitner XDS1. You can make out a turntable rack just to the right of the tall cabinet (to the left of the fireplace mantel). The Siegfried amps are located in a separate room (actually a big closet) behind the front wall that you see in the photo. The speaker wire passes from the amps to the speakers through small openings in the baseboard trim.

To address some other queries, the nose to speaker distance is 16' 4 ". The interspeaker distance (inner surfaces) is 9' 8".

I don't want to dismiss the good questions others have asked about specifics of the sound, but honestly folks, this was a not a situation that the level of detail folks have asked for could be ascertained in a meaningful way. The systems just weren't set up to their best advantage to enable meaningful discrimination at that level. At least for me.

One thing I found amusing is the line of questioning about the brands of amps and cables used. I think we all agree these do indeed make a difference in systems of this caliber, but let's get real. Whereas amps and cable are basically ruler flat, by far and away the single most important variable that effects the listening experience is frequency response. With relatively significant deviations observed in both systems which show from far from ideal frequency responses, what is the point of bringing into the discussion, the relative merits of amplification or speaker wire? I will say however, that the McIntosh gear is not only fine gear (even the great HP thinks the 2301 is one of the great tube amps of our time), but can anybody argue that it isn't some of the most beautiful gear around and has been for several decades! Let me tell you, when you flip the input selector of the Mc preamp to phono, and the thick acrylic platter of the turntable suddenly lights up in sea foam green, if that doesn't make your heart do a little dance, then you are not an audiophile!

It does seem however that audiophiles are often distracted by small things that are not nearly as important as basic fundamentals such as frequency response. For me, I am comfortable talking about the relative impact and sonic merits of that stuff only after the fundamentals are in place and done correctly. Once we get the big stuff out of the way, I think its then fair to delve deeply in to the analytics that others have asked for. Until then, as in the systems here, there are far bigger fish to fry.
Marty

 

[LL21]

BTW, Marty is a very modest man and never posts pictures of his room so I thought that I would put this one up. It was completely designed by Marty and has won architectural awards for the design and look.

IMO not only is it gorgeous to behold but it is one of the finest sounds I have ever heard

Beautiful! Marty - can you tell us a little about the ceiling soffet and treatment? Was that aesthetic as well as acoustic...or purely an acoustic decision?

 

[microstrip]

(...) I fully agree on zanden gear which i know pretty well . (...)

I have never listened to Zanden electronics, but find really interesting that tube monoblocks equipped with a push-pull using a pair of 845 triodes can drive the Aida's. I hope that Marty will come back again on this aspect - although I see he already has a long list of questions to answer!

 

[LL21]

I have never listened to Zanden electronics, but find really interesting that f tube monoblocks equipped with a push-pull using a pair of 845 triodes can drive the Aida's. I hope that Marty will come back again on this aspect - although I see he already has a long list of questions to answer!

I think they are pure Class A 75-watt per channel monos, with a fair amount of current? And the Aidas are, 4ohm and 93db efficient (just a guess)? I imagine bigger amps will drive them to greater levels, but SF Homage series historically in my experience has always sounded great with mid powered tubes, and rarely benefited from supreme amounts of just power-for-the-sake-of- power (ie, they dont need to be woken up with power)...but i willl say that my Strads DID benefit from extremely high quality power...mainly in terms of bass control and therefore a far more composed soundstage at volume becaus the bottom end remained utterly stable and the soundstaging was allowed to expand without destabilizing.

 

[microstrip]

(...) And the Aidas are, 4ohm and 93db efficient (just a guess)? (...)

Wrong guess! 89dB - they seem to need a lot of power.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I dont know if a full zanden set is 100 % neutral but what is ?, 60 watt in class a , i have heard them also with KR tubes , maybe they have more output then i dont know
Heard them with kharma midi exq . and Magico v3 they drive them both very well
http://www.soundstage.com/equipment/zanden_model_9600.htm

 

[Steve williams]

Steve, in general my comments are just in conversation and nothing else meant by them. Aren't we allowed to offer such?

Maybe it wasn't the best time for the OP "Marty" to write as he did or in doing so should have added some of the information you did, I wasn't there so how would I know.

It's great to read Mike is doing so well in the audio business specifically with lines mentioned.

In relation to Mac gear, as I mentioned I have owned and enjoyed numerous pces. Actually still own a MR-78 TUNER but with the speakers mentioned there are numerous others to pair up and compare.

You mentioned Mike caries in stock every component made by Mac, why did he not have MC2KW Monoblocks paired up with any of these speakers then?

In relation to what Marty said hearing the 101Extremes and hearing double voices is this what you heard also?

I hear you re your comment DEV but again the Mac 2301 was simply fantastic on the Aida so much so that I really only began to pay attention when that tube amp was put in the chain

As to why Mike didn't use the MC2Kw that's something only he can answer

As to the MBL 101-Xtreme I hear the same as Marty. I would stick with your 101E DEV

 

[Steve williams]

2. Steve - what do your instincts tell you about how much of an 'uplift' (if any) the XLF is compared to your X2 2s...and in what areas?

for me it was fairly evident in the treble and bass due to different tweeter and dimensions of the woofer module which IIRC adds something like 14% extra room in the cabinet to enhance the bottom end. I love that tweeter but as I said my X-2 series 2 with twin Gotham subs still brings a smile to my face

Lloyd the Zanden amp is 65wpc at MSRP of $65K

 

[ack]

Our listening rooms are NOT specially designed, near acoustically perfect rooms-this is not what most people have in their homes. We can and have done such rooms for clients with the desire, time and space, however our goal in the showroom is to create wonderfully reproduced music in real-world living rooms.

I appreciate that, but you do understand that you are not showcasing what the demoed systems can really do in that case, which can mislead customers - clearly, Steve and Marty were careful to word their reviews around the room's serious limitations. After all, living rooms vary so widely, and yours is probably yet another variant, so how can one judge what they hear in the store against their own space? Why not then provide them with a good reference listening environment - especially for such expensive equipment - to which they can build up, if they want to?

Isn't one of the goals of a good dealer to maximize the performance of what's demoed, so that customers can better appreciate the equipment and what good room treatment can do for them? Isn't room treatment part of the overall equation, especially for such expensive equipment? How would one know what room treatment can really do? Just by in-home trial and error???

Likewise, would you demo with substandard cables or power cords, just because in the real world some customers aren't spending a lot of money on cables? Or do you demo with the best you have in the store?

 

[DEV]

I hear you re your comment DEV but again the Mac 2301 was simply fantastic on the Aida so much so that I really only began to pay attention when that tube amp was put in the chain

As to why Mike didn't use the MC2Kw that's something only he can answer

As to the MBL 101-Xtreme I hear the same as Marty. I would stick with your 101E DEV

Mac 2301's, I owned a pair so I'm very familiar but obviously not with the speakers or system you heard them on.

MBL 101-Xtreme, I have been trading back and forth some emails with others whom say they are familiar and said the remark in relation to hearing double voices is nonsence, "actually can't repeat what they really said" they said something had to be very wrong because this is not their characteristics.

Doesn't matter to me and I HAVE never heard them personally but just thought is was od because as I have never heard comments of such prior.

 

[ALF]

I appreciate that, but you do understand that you are not showcasing what the demoed systems can really do in that case, which can mislead customers - clearly, Steve and Marty were careful to word their reviews around the room's serious limitations. After all, living rooms vary so widely, and yours is probably yet another variant, so how can one judge what they hear in the store against their own space? Why not then provide them with a good reference listening environment - especially for such expensive equipment - to which they can build up, if they want to?

Isn't one of the goals of a good dealer to maximize the performance of what's demoed,
so that customers can better appreciate the equipment and what good room treatment can do for them? Isn't room treatment part of the overall equation, especially for such expensive equipment? How would one know what room treatment can really do? Just by in-home trial and error???

Likewise, would you demo with substandard cables or power cords, just because in the real world some customers aren't spending a lot of money on cables? Or do you demo with the best you have in the store?

Hi ACK...you maybe a little on this kind guy in Scottsdale. As you know, Steve is a Lamm dealer and there just might be a little professional bias in play here.

Cheers!
ALF
Me too

 

[Steve williams]

It must have been speaker placement DEV because you can bet that for $250K it just shouldn't happen. What I also found interesting is that Marty heard the speaker in Berlin at the MBL factory and made the same comment when he heard it there. FWIW I can also tell you that Marty is probably the most astute listener I have ever met

 

[Steve williams]

Hi ACK...you maybe a little on this kind guy in Scottsdale. As you know, Steve is a Lamm dealer and there just might be a little professional bias in play here.

Cheers!
ALF
Me too

Huh?

what sort of professonal bias.

DEV asked if I would ever sell my Lamm ML3 and the answer is "no" but that doesn't preclude me from listening to other great systems.

I did find interesting however that with the XLF the bottom end was better with SS MC 1.2Kw rather than the MC2301.

Also it was quite obvious that in Mike's room rear porting produced a better bottom end than front porting

 

[ack]

I don't see any "professional bias" here either... Confused, frankly, about that comment...

 

[cjfrbw]

Hi ACK...you maybe a little on this kind guy in Scottsdale. As you know, Steve is a Lamm dealer and there just might be a little professional bias in play here.

Cheers!
ALF
Me too

Steve's a straight shooter, and his "Lamm Dealership" is at best a part time avocation, mainly because he has the ideal room for displaying the equipment at its best, certainly better than the Wilson hi end dealers in our area.

I have never had the impression that his opinions about what he hears were swayed by his ownership preferences.

That being said, it is always better to reveal any manufacturer affiliation and I don't think Steve has ever hidden or disguised his affiliation to become an audiophile infomercialist, which is more than can be said for a lot of posters on the boards.

 

[KeithR]

People need to stop getting bent out of shape when someone says something negative about a piece or brand they own.

You bought it because you like it- other opinions dont matter. At this level of hifi, taste matters greatly.

 

[LL21]

Wrong guess! 89dB - they seem to need a lot of power.

darn! bad guess!

 

[LL21]

for me it was fairly evident in the treble and bass due to different tweeter and dimensions of the woofer module which IIRC adds something like 14% extra room in the cabinet to enhance the bottom end. I love that tweeter but as I said my X-2 series 2 with twin Gotham subs still brings a smile to my face

Lloyd the Zanden amp is 65wpc at MSRP of $65K

Thanks...interesting.

 

[ALF]

Huh?

what sort of professonal bias.

DEV asked if I would ever sell my Lamm ML3 and the answer is "no" but that doesn't preclude me from listening to other great systems.

I did find interesting however that with the XLF the bottom end was better with SS MC 1.2Kw rather than the MC2301.

Also it was quite obvious that in Mike's room rear porting produced a better bottom end
than front porting

Hi Steve,

Yes, the SS will control the big Wilson chassis much better than tube amplificatio, simple.

Sorry to upset you; however, regarding the above-mentioned kind dealer in Scottsdale that provided roundtrip airport pickup service for you, was he thinking that the two of you were just audiophiles out on a roadtrip or did he think that you two were potential customers looking to make a decision?

Cheers!
ALF
Lammie Guy...