Sonus Faber Aida vs. Wilson XLF (with the MBL 101 Extreme thrown-in for fun)
- Thread starter marty
- Start date
I gotta tell everyone... at CES in the MBL room at night, packed with people.. it was like being at a concert. The only other time I've heard this is on the IRS Vs. Third video down will give you some idea of that night: CES Videos Series One
Hi Mike, come on it's only 6 pces and only approx 900 pounds
A local freind owns them and hearing and owning other MAC gear these would be on my short list to hear with the different speakers mentioned so you might want to add such, you could always have them placed on a dolly system to move around.
I'm very curious in relation to what has been mentioned hearing double voices when listening to the MBL 101-Xtremes. Both Steve & Marty said they heard this at your place but you say you don't, this just really seems od to me.
As for the 101E's and pairing them up with the 9011's and your thoughts being you have not found any better match, what other amps and pre combo's have you tried and what were the sonic differences you heard.
I have heard mine with Boulder 2050's, Karan 1200's, CAT JL3 Sig MK2's, MBL 9008's & 9011's, numerous Pass amps, Mac 1.2KW & 2301's, Bryston Squared 28's to just name a few.
I have ended up with a pair of VAC Statement 450's and to my ears none of the above even came close as a complete package, paired up with the Vac Sig MK2a pre.
You can refer to my Vac journey, upon my arival home from my 3-day visit I still had a pair of 9011's and 1060d "owned for 3 years" set-up so I obviously played my system. Just no comparison, I couldn't wait to place my order for the VAC's, packed up my MBL's and don't miss them. I actually know first hand several other individuals whom have either owned 9008's or 9011's paired up with MBL's and all have since moved onto using other manufactures.
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?5895-My-VAC-journey
Sources ranging from using MBL 1621a transport paired up with a AA Ref Tube dac- Zanden, Kalistra Ref, Esoteric etc, preferred source using a table such as a TW Black Knight with numerous carts and arms along with numerous other tables.
Curious what size of room do you have the 101's in, when running them with the 9001's what power cables, IC's were or are you using. Have you done any comparisons with these and your thoughts.
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Hi Peter, thanks for sharing.
What's your take on what Steve and Marty conveyed in relation to the X-Tremes and hearing double voices, have you ever heard this?
In relation to amplification what do you have paired up with your 101E's currently, what's your take sonically listening to these speakers with say other amps such as tube in comparison to say the 9011's or 9008's
Hi Dev, I have used some of the same amps you have tried as well as Levinson and Burmester, all very good amps but the 9011's were designed for the 101e...They do however need LOTS of break-in time to hit full stride and will sound best paired with an MBL pre-amp, really something to be said for that synergy thing... I will apologize in advance for not posting very often, there is just not enough time in the day to get things done as it is...thanks all for understanding. Our first priority is customer service of our clients and we must try and get the showroom finished! I am also trying to fit in a trip to the High End show in Munich.
I guess I'm not a full blown audiophile. When I see hourglass figures I think of hourglass figures.
For the record I have never heard the X-tremes, Aida or XLF therefor I have no opinion. I do want to though.
I'd like to address in a bit more detail, the issue of "double voice" I noticed on the MBL Xtremes. First, In Berlin, I sat exactly where Wolfgang (the company founder) told me to sit. It was certainly far enough away that I would have expected the location to be appropriate for full integration of the drivers. The same thing was true in Scottsdale- perhaps 12-14 ft. But the key is the material that was being used for demo. I agree fully with Peter that when I heard the Xtremes at CES, they were wonderful. I think its fair to say it was one of the top systems I have heard anywhere. But the source material was generally complex material and particularly orchestral material. I don't think anyone would be able to hear what I described with such material. The minor limitation of the system that I have described requires the use of unadorned human voices, ideally with a soloist on either the right or left side that is singing for a long enough period of time that you can actually take the time to discriminate where that singer is in space and the location from where his voice emanates when simply miked. The recordings I generally use for this are the Kings Singers. There are many tracks where one of the tenor or even better, baritone singers sings alone or above the background vocals. Let's say the vocalist is singing on the left channel. If I close my eyes and am asked to point to exactly where I think the singer's mouth is, with the Xtremes, half of the time my finger points to a place that seems to come from the top radial driver and about half the time, I will point to a location that is in alignment with the lower driver. Happens every time and I don't think distance from the driver is the critical variable as long as its within reason (not too close and not 50 feet way either). Now, a lone soloist singing in the middle of both channels is a much tougher situation and this experiment will not work under that circumstance. Yet I can't help but feel there is an ever so slight elongation to the center vocal image (again, male) that I don't perceive on a conventional dynamic speaker, even with a D'Appolito configuration. Nor can I reproduce it with the single midrange driver MBL 101s. Now once any sort of complex material is used as a source, all bets are off. I simply don't think one can hear the very specific instance of "double image" that I am referring to using the lone left or right male voice test. At least I can't. Too hard! Finally, let me say this. I realize that I am picking at nits here. But I happen to listen to a lot of vocal material and for me, this is a speaker performance issue that I just couldn't live with. It's not even a cost issue although I think we all rightly expect performance limitations to decrease commensurately with speaker cost. As my old audio mentor Paul Heath used to say as he gazed lovingly at the secretaries piling out of the Kodak building across the street from his shop on State street every day at 5pm; when it comes to audio, ice cream, and other things, "you pays yer money and you takes yer choice".
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I agree in relation to break-in, actually that goes hand in hand for most if not audio pces.
In your line up I would suggest you ad VAC, I know if I was a dealer for sure this product line would be a no brainer.
All the way from their integraded right up to my Statement mono blocks and Sig. pre-amp. Jack can tell you how his brothers same amps and pre-amp as mine sound with his VS VR-11's speakers.
Both the 6010d pre 9011's and 9008's were broken-in.
Look forward to your responce to my other questions
You should post some pics of your set-ups.
Really
Why? What is that you don't like or is it just the speakers. Just doesn't make any sense because the speakers aren't as hard to set-up as made out to be, I could see them not sounding their best but "not sounding good" leaves me
wondering why? Possibly the electronics paired up with them, playing the music way too loud!I read guys were really impressed hearing them paired up with CAT tube mono blocks this year at the CES.
Personally one of the biggest improvements was hearing them for the first time paired up with what I now currently have "VAC" put a huge smile on my face
Really
Just doesn't make any sense because the speakers aren't as hard to set-up as made out to be, I could see them not sounding their best but "not sounding good" leaves me
I read guys were really impressed hearing them paired up with CAT tube mono blocks this year at the CES.
Personally one of the biggest improvements was hearing them for the first time paired up with what I now currently have "VAC" put a huge smile on my face
I was simply reporting what I've heard at shows. Which as we all know, doesn't necessarily mean a whole lot due to show and room conditions, not to mention putting all those bodies in a small space. So in this case, yes your own presence in the room can be deleterious to the sound
But it does tell me that they're not the easiest to set up for good sound as I've only heard the 101s sound good in one system. And my colleague worked his tail off to get the sound. Truth be told be told, there is a reason for ALL the different speaker manufacturers. And it's because everyone has their preferences and some are deathly allergic to the sound of any given speaker, given it be ML, MBL, Magnepan, Wilson, YG, Hansen, etc.
Since the MBLs rely so much on omnidirectional sound, can it be that un-tuned room conditions at a show (with limited time for fine adjustment, & frankly bad acoustical properties to begin with) will degrade their sound more than that of directional speakers?
Lee
Lee
My own take on the "MBL dilemma" concerns paradigm shifts in audio components.
If one is used to a particular type of speaker, then one's brain has predictions and expectations based on training. A different type of speaker will represent a paradigm shift.
Planars, line sources, dipolars, point sources, box speakers, omnis, horns all represent paradigm shifts of greater or lesser degrees, depending on your expectations and starting points.
I have planar speakers. Whenever i listen to box speakers, it does not matter how expensive or well made, the first thing I hear are box colorations, and they are very specific and vivid. On a superficial listen, they are kind of annoying. After a while, when my brain has done its integration and adaptation thing, I don't specifically hear them any more, and I can properly hear the speaker as a speaker.
As omnis, the MBLs probably represent a very large paradigm shift. That tends to make them disadvantaged under show conditions, and they probably need several days before one accommodates to them and appreciates their virtues.
Some audiophiles also expect expensive devices to be "blown away" good the first time and every time. They don't think that a symphony of virtues may take time to sink in and appreciate. In video, that is why cheap and expensive tv's alike are lit up like high contrast, blue torches on the showroom floor. Most videophiles will adjust and dial them back a lot to an appearance that would be quite unappetizing on a show room floor, but is much more natural in the long term home setting.
If one is used to a particular type of speaker, then one's brain has predictions and expectations based on training. A different type of speaker will represent a paradigm shift.
Planars, line sources, dipolars, point sources, box speakers, omnis, horns all represent paradigm shifts of greater or lesser degrees, depending on your expectations and starting points.
I have planar speakers. Whenever i listen to box speakers, it does not matter how expensive or well made, the first thing I hear are box colorations, and they are very specific and vivid. On a superficial listen, they are kind of annoying. After a while, when my brain has done its integration and adaptation thing, I don't specifically hear them any more, and I can properly hear the speaker as a speaker.
As omnis, the MBLs probably represent a very large paradigm shift. That tends to make them disadvantaged under show conditions, and they probably need several days before one accommodates to them and appreciates their virtues.
Some audiophiles also expect expensive devices to be "blown away" good the first time and every time. They don't think that a symphony of virtues may take time to sink in and appreciate. In video, that is why cheap and expensive tv's alike are lit up like high contrast, blue torches on the showroom floor. Most videophiles will adjust and dial them back a lot to an appearance that would be quite unappetizing on a show room floor, but is much more natural in the long term home setting.
Hi Mike, come on it's only 6 pces and only approx 900 pounds
A local freind owns them and hearing and owning other MAC gear these would be on my short list to hear with the different speakers mentioned so you might want to add such, you could always have them placed on a dolly system to move around.
I'm very curious in relation to what has been mentioned hearing double voices when listening to the MBL 101-Xtremes. Both Steve & Marty said they heard this at your place but you say you don't, this just really seems od to me.
As for the 101E's and pairing them up with the 9011's and your thoughts being you have not found any better match, what other amps and pre combo's have you tried and what were the sonic differences you heard.
I have heard mine with Boulder 2050's, Karan 1200's, CAT JL3 Sig MK2's, MBL 9008's & 9011's, numerous Pass amps, Mac 1.2KW & 2301's, Bryston Squared 28's to just name a few.
I have ended up with a pair of VAC Statement 450's and to my ears none of the above even came close as a complete package, paired up with the Vac Sig MK2a pre.
You can refer to my Vac journey, upon my arival home from my 3-day visit I still had a pair of 9011's and 1060d "owned for 3 years" set-up so I obviously played my system. Just no comparison, I couldn't wait to place my order for the VAC's, packed up my MBL's and don't miss them. I actually know first hand several other individuals whom have either owned 9008's or 9011's paired up with MBL's and all have since moved onto using other manufactures.
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?5895-My-VAC-journey
Sources ranging from using MBL 1621a transport paired up with a AA Ref Tube dac- Zanden, Kalistra Ref, Esoteric etc, preferred source using a table such as a TW Black Knight with numerous carts and arms along with numerous other tables.
Curious what size of room do you have the 101's in, when running them with the 9001's what power cables, IC's were or are you using. Have you done any comparisons with these and your thoughts.
Why couldn't it be each individual's height combined with the height of the listening chair that puts them at a different listening position in relation to the drivers and their dispersion patterns?
Geez what ever happened to Paul? He was truly one of the early high end audio store pioneers!
Myles,
Does this include RMAF?
If it does, I guess my hearing is pretty bad. But then again, we all have our own opinion of what is good given the room, what was playing, and where one was sitting during the demo.
Gordon
