Soon to come, hORNS Universum mk4!

[Hear Here]

This maybe a premature observation--I've heard Avantgardes since they first appeared and have always had mixed opinions -
some great some not so. The fact that Flea power is manageable is good plus and they can be dynamic -also very good.
I have a friend with the Duos and he uses the Trafomatic(?) Amp and while it sounds excellent
-- it's 'forwardness" in presentation is tad fatiguing for Moi!

The Duos do deserve consideration and after all the decision is yours alone.

However the dilemma in my mind is after listening to Ked's vid's on my B+W P9's with strikingly similar music to my friends Duos
I would say the Universums are far sonically superior over fuller spectrum of the sonics--the blending was superb--something I feel the Avantgardes
always seem to fail--IMHO only!

Good luck with your decision .

BruceD

Thanks Bruce

I've owned Avantgardes since about 2003 and I've never found them to be in the least "fatiguing" Quite the contrary, they offer a far greater excitement factor than any other speakers I've owned.

I bought Unos, largely after reading the excellent Stereophile review by Robert Deutsch (then it was chosen as Speaker of the Year jointly with an $85K Dynaudio system), to replace my ATC 50 Active speakers. What a difference! The ATCs were so much "in yer face" I wanted to push them back another 20 feet - sadly not possible - so I sold them despite having had them on my "must have when I can afford them" list for years. The Unos were so refreshing, Sparkling and exciting with very low fatigue factor. One wants to turn up the volume and wallow in the feeling of "being there" whether it's an intimate jazz venue or concert hall.

B&W (at least 802) - no fear - great for head banging stuff (try Sandstorm by Darude on 802s at crazy volume - fantastic) but far from subtle.

Now moved to Duos after disappointing trials with Martin Logans, but likely to upgrade to latest Duos soon.

Avantgarde vs hORNS. Well irrespective of sound quality (I can't comment on the hORNS), the sad fact is that German-built speakers with good worldwide distributors is a better bet than Polish-built with possibly less well respected one-man-band distributors. No disrespect, but one has to consider these things, however great the hORNS may be. I think I'll stick with Avantgarde, although perhaps I'd feel differently if I lived in Eastern Europe..

 

[bonzo75]

Avantgarde vs hORNS. Well irrespective of sound quality (I can't comment on the hORNS), the sad fact is that German-built speakers with good worldwide distributors is a better bet than Polish-built with possibly less well respected one-man-band distributors. No disrespect, but one has to consider these things, however great the hORNS may be. I think I'll stick with Avantgarde, although perhaps I'd feel differently if I lived in Eastern Europe..

You should try to do better than use the same statements you used in the cars discussion in a speaker discussion.

Lukasz's autotech horns have been used for more than 2 decades world wide and the are the most popular in the DIY community. Asia, Europe, US, many use them. In fact they are the best in their type. The three best horn speakers I have heard (Leif's, Silvercore, and another one in Berlin), all used horns by autotech (Lukasz). Lukasz only started making entire speakers early 2010s, but he has been established much before that. hORNS now has enough distribution in main countries especially EU. Is AG bigger? Yes. Does it matter? No. AG, like Wilson and Magico, is a closed form design. No one knows exactly what driver is used in the speaker, and it can be sourced only from AG. Universum is an open form design. The Radian drivers are very well known and available. Anyone with half decent horn build knowledge can put the Uni together with parts. The only thing in LUkasz's mind is the crossover. So unless an owner is going to stomp on the crossover and break it, nothing will happen to that speaker that cannot be fixed in Lukasz's absence.

 

[bonzo75]

I just don't agree with you about Trios. The Trio is the only one of the 3 original ranges designed by AG that has enjoyed only marginal improvements. Granted it has new drivers (as have the Unos and Duos), but it's still flawed in that the horns are not vertically aligned. The Uno and Duo ranges have enjoyed massive changes over the last 20 years, but not the Trio. These sell in much larger volumes, so the company is obviously prioritises improvements to these models than the very slow selling Trio. Hopefully they'll take a look at more radical improvements to the Trio in due course, but in the meanwhile, this range is dropping further and further behind its siblings. In particular the Mezzo XD is now probably the best that AG offers - excluding the pig-ugly Primo!

There is no progress in the unos and duos. Since you are a buyer you might be hanging out too much on duo owners threads. They always sounded, like Bruce said, forward and fatiguing to me. They sound compressed and disparate. The trios have much more ease and flow, which comes from size. If trios lack in anything compared to non AG speakers, it is that there are horns with better tone. In the commercial space, with trios, Anima, and Uni, it is a toss up based on individual preference, they are quite distinct and all quite good. All three are superior to other models within each others line up by quite a margin, and to all Cessaros below Beethoven, or to hybrid Acapellas.

 

[marslo]

There is no progress in the unos and duos. Since you are a buyer you might be hanging out too much on duo owners threads. They always sounded, like Bruce said, forward and fatiguing to me. They sound compressed and disparate. The trios have much more ease and flow, which comes from size. If trios lack in anything compared to non AG speakers, it is that there are horns with better tone. In the commercial space, with trios, Anima, and Uni, it is a toss up based on individual preference, they are quite distinct and all quite good. All three are superior to other models within each others line up by quite a margin, and to all Cessaros below Beethoven, or to hybrid Acapellas.

Ked , I would gently disagree about compression of Duo sound, especially midrange.
Technically there is no crossover at all in the signal path so this is the purest way to reproduce the signal from the amplifier.
You may not like the timbre due to the material applied for AG's horns ( ABS injection mold) , but the mids are not compressed at all. There is also an alnico magnet here so for me Duo Mezzo XD have one of the best midrange I heard.
The bass is better than most of mid size horn speakers , the only difference is the tweeter , here I agree with you.

Are they " forward playing" ? In my opinion the soundstage is built behind speakers line and is quite deep , may be not too large.
As far as fatigue is concerned this is a matter of personal sensivity, I had the impression of too much gain with some amplifiers ( agressive sound ) and digital harshness with some sources but with EML 45s I am really happy .

The " ease and flow " of Trios - maybe, but I was impressed by the Trios only once and to my surprise it was with Vitus Masterpiece series amp in Munich.

 

[bonzo75]

The effortless ness can possibly be from the larger size of the lower midrange horn or the fact that the driver is less stretched since in trios there is a midrange horn and a lower midrange horn. No crossover is not always a good thing, the driver should be able to do the extended bandwidth with ease, else it will sound stretched. Without a capable driver, it is better to multi way. Also AG claims no crossover but they refer to some proprietary CDC/CPC handling to manage crossover. No idea what that is

 

[marslo]

The effortless ness can possibly be from the larger size of the lower midrange horn or the fact that the driver is less stretched since in trios there is a midrange horn and a lower midrange horn. No crossover is not always a good thing, the driver should be able to do the extended bandwidth with ease, else it will sound stretched. Without a capable driver, it is better to multi way. Also AG claims no crossover but they refer to some proprietary CDC/CPC handling to manage crossover. No idea what that is

Trios go down to 100 Hz with their big horn , my Duo Mezzo to 170 Hz. So the only difference is the midbass - frequencies from 100 to 170 Hz, hard to believe that this is the game changer.
Below 100 Hz both Duos and Trios have subwoofers, the Trios basshorn is for sure the best of the line.

 

[Hear Here]

Trios go down to 100 Hz with their big horn , my Duo Mezzo to 170 Hz. So the only difference is the midbass - frequencies from 100 to 170 Hz, hard to believe that this is the game changer.
Below 100 Hz both Duos and Trios have subwoofers, the Trios basshorn is for sure the best of the line.

Hi marslo

I agree with you that the Mezzo is an exceptionally good sounding and non-tiring horn system.

However, I'm slightly surprised at the Mezzo's sub setting of 170 Hz. It appears to be fixed, although lots of level adjustments around this crossover point. Earlier Duos have an adjustable sub crossover point with 140 Hz recommended as a starting point for the Duos with SUB225CTRL subs.

.

 

[marslo]

Hi marslo

I agree with you that the Mezzo is an exceptionally good sounding and non-tiring horn system.

However, I'm slightly surprised at the Mezzo's sub setting of 170 Hz. It appears to be fixed, although lots of level adjustments around this crossover point. Earlier Duos have an adjustable sub crossover point with 140 Hz recommended as a starting point for the Duos with SUB225CTRL subs.

.

If I understand properly the concept ot the midrange horn the crossover point is the result of the shape of the horn itself. As the size and the shape did not change in relation to the previous models I think the real crossover point remains the same.
Of course the tuning of the subwoofers may influance the playback , with the new XD series the tuning is much more precise and integration with room acoustics is much better.
I have adjusted the crossover point in my Mezzo XD at 220 Hz with -12 or -24 dB slope depending on the preset.

 

[Hear Here]

If I understand properly the concept ot the midrange horn the crossover point is the result of the shape of the horn itself. As the size and the shape did not change in relation to the previous models I think the real crossover point remains the same.
Of course the tuning of the subwoofers may influance the playback , with the new XD series the tuning is much more precise and integration with room acoustics is much better.
I have adjusted the crossover point in my Mezzo XD at 220 Hz with -12 or -24 dB slope depending on the preset.

You may well be right but another consideration is the new Omega mid-range driver used in your Mezzos. My earlier, lower impedance (6-8 ohms) unit that MAY allow it to offer its lowest frequencies (below 170) at sufficient level that the subs can be adjusted downwards. I know that a lot of older Duo owners dial in the subs at 190 or even higher but this is not recommended, but in my own experience this results in a bit of muddiness / booming in this XO range I believe Jim Smith found that 140 was the best starting point with old pre-Omega Duos. Also I think he suggested a reversal of polarity of the subs to improve smoothness over the XO range. This certainly improves things with my Duos!

Using 140 (and reversing sub polarity) provides the best sound and is a less fatiguing listen than 170. In fact I wonder if Bonzo's criticism of Duos may be as a result of listening to poorly adjusted settings. Peter

You say you set -12 dB at 220 - do you leave 170 or 140 at 0dB? .

 

[Zero000]

Duos are alright Ked just hates them for the sake of hating them IMHO.

 

[bonzo75]

Duos are alright Ked just hates them for the sake of hating them IMHO.

Generally I either dislike horns totally or like them a lot. I will take most cone speakers over horns that I don't like. I don't see any average in horns, like with cones. Also, I don't like the next in line of any of these brands - hORNS, AG, or the tune audio models below Anima

 

[marslo]

You may well be right but another consideration is the new Omega mid-range driver used in your Mezzos. My earlier, lower impedance (6-8 ohms) unit that MAY allow it to offer its lowest frequencies (below 170) at sufficient level that the subs can be adjusted downwards. I know that a lot of older Duo owners dial in the subs at 190 or even higher but this is not recommended, but in my own experience this results in a bit of muddiness / booming in this XO range I believe Jim Smith found that 140 was the best starting point with old pre-Omega Duos. Also I think he suggested a reversal of polarity of the subs to improve smoothness over the XO range. This certainly improves things with my Duos!

Using 140 (and reversing sub polarity) provides the best sound and is a less fatiguing listen than 170. In fact I wonder if Bonzo's criticism of Duos may be as a result of listening to poorly adjusted settings. Peter

You say you set -12 dB at 220 - do you leave 170 or 140 at 0dB? .

Yes, more or less so .
Here is my preferred setting with the attenuation of the whole bass range - 11,05 dB. As you can see above approx 170 Hz there is 0 dB gain.
I still wait for the professional measurement with the mic by the local AG dealer.

 

[Blue58]

I just don't agree with you about Trios. The Trio is the only one of the 3 original ranges designed by AG that has enjoyed only marginal improvements. Granted it has new drivers (as have the Unos and Duos), but it's still flawed in that the horns are not vertically aligned. The Uno and Duo ranges have enjoyed massive changes over the last 20 years, but not the Trio. These sell in much larger volumes, so the company is obviously prioritises improvements to these models than the very slow selling Trio. Hopefully they'll take a look at more radical improvements to the Trio in due course, but in the meanwhile, this range is dropping further and further behind its siblings. In particular the Mezzo XD is now probably the best that AG offers - excluding the pig-ugly Primo!

Only marginal? Now with the new drivers, and short bass horns with XD tech. As near damn it as vertically aligned too.
Apologies for going off the Universum

Yes, more or less so .
Here is my preferred setting with the attenuation of the whole bass range - 11,05 dB.
I still wait for the professional measurement with the mic by the local AG dealer.

Hi Marslo, the graph show a +4db lift between 30 and 60hz. Do they really require this in your room?

Hi Peter, my Omegas cross at 170hz with no polarity reversal of the bass, I’m happy.

btw, wasn’t this thread about Universum MkIV? Let’s get back into it as I’m curious also.

 

[marslo]

Only marginal? Now with the new drivers, and short bass horns with XD tech. As near damn it as vertically aligned too.
Apologies for going off the Universum
View attachment 65628

Hi Marslo, the graph show a +4db lift between 30 and 60hz. Do they really require this in your room?

Hi Peter, my Omegas cross at 170hz with no polarity reversal of the bass, I’m happy.

btw, wasn’t this thread about Universum MkIV? Let’s get back into it as I’m curious also.

You are right, sorry for OT. Let's go back to Universum.

 

[Zero000]

Generally I either dislike horns totally or like them a lot. I will take most cone speakers over horns that I don't like. I don't see any average in horns, like with cones. Also, I don't like the next in line of any of these brands - hORNS, AG, or the tune audio models below Anima

I think nearly all AG models are acceptable. Even the old ones are OK.

hORNS FP15 is my fave hORNS speaker.

Anima I have only ever heard sound good with classical and Aries Cerat. But there may be other combos that work. I still wouldn't go for them personally.

 

[exupgh12]

Congratulation Aviad on achieving yet another dream, may you have lots of enjoyable listening hours.

 

[byrdparis]

so, after a few months of waiting patiently its finally here.
its been playing almost non stop for 3-4 days now, with some fine tuning here in there during those hours.
every mid and twitter has their own Pot for gain, you can change also the angle of the drivers to adapt it to your listening position and length from the speakers.
for now im using my "Old" tube amps set,
its a custom made two monoblocks with 4xkt120 a side, and a 6sn7 based preamp. they puts 120W a side but played so wonderfully and smooth.
maybe in the future i will try some single ended stuff and others amps just for reference and trials till something will beat my own set.

i am very happy with my decision and wish to thanks again to Christoph and Ked for their help and inputs.

(my system on the racks are changing this days.. a new DAC and Turntable will be up in a few weeks... so it looks a bit "empty" there..)

 

[bonzo75]

This is looking awesome. It fits the decor so remarkably well, it is always so difficult to imagine good horns in WAF situations. So that's not exactly white, but a special color?

As time goes you can try different toe-ins, raising the woofers slightly up to see what happens to the bass response, placing auralex pads under the woofers, etc. And roll as many amps as you can. If you go really low watt you will need to biamp. But it will keep you experimenting for a few months while enjoying the music.

 

[bonzo75]

Aviad, is that gloss or matte

 

[christoph]

I'm glad you finally got them and even more so that you obviously love them and are happy with your decision

Also the color scheme fits your room very well

Can you take some pics from the pots to adjust the volume levels on the x-over?