Speaker Challenge . . .

[bonzo75]

IIRC TA stopped producing, he retired or was sick or something.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I appreciate your experience and observations, Frantz! Thank you!

I totally agree that the Magnepans are under-appreciated. I also agree the Magnepan tweeter ribbon is equal to the best (if it is not actually the best). But, as we all know, Magnepans builds to a price point (and delivers exceptional value at that price point).

I have always wished Magnepan would do what MartinLogan did with the Neolith -- build the very best one-column speaker -- with the most rigid, heavy structure -- they can, and let the price chips fall where they may.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Oddly, the website says that the speaker section is being updated, and another part says they are looking for investors.

Bonzo -- I think you should visit them and kick the tires!

 

[garylkoh]

On the subject of Maggies only Marty responded to the idea. I think Maggies don't register in the Ultra High End because of their low prices. There! I said it . You will never see a Boulder /Maggie combo or a Dar Tzeel/Maggie or Lamm/Maggie for that matter. The tradition of Maggie and ARC is still strong but too often with the lower powered ARC models, Maggies would prefer 250 wpc. they're for the most part 85 dB/W/m efficient , perhaps less thus require power. The combination of Magneplanar speakers and upper tier electronics is startling. I know it from experience. The Maggies do bass but relieving them from the duty of going below 50 Hz makes then much better reproducers of music.. If a person is adverse to active crossovers, then supplementing Maggies with subs is the next best thing and it works. A pair Maggie 3.7 will have open minded people wondering why they need to pay 10 times to get 10% better sound or not even that .. The Maggie ribbon remains as one of the best ever. There aren't many better tweeter around in term of extension and purity. You add a swarm of subs with a 3.7 and prepare yourself for an adventure. And that could be for much less than $20K! One of the reasons I keep on dancing around but seems to always come back to Maggies. The Price to Performance ratio is off the chart!

I'm in complete agreement. Before I lusted after Genesis 1's I had a pair of Maggie 3.6's with all-FM Acoustics. The bottleneck then certainly wasn't the speaker. However, I wanted more oomph in the lower end but could never get subwoofers to work right with them. At the time, being an audiophile and reading reviews, I bought what was the most highly reviewed and rated subs then available (this was end-1990's). Combination sucked big time - I couldn't get them to integrate despite crossing over at below 40Hz. So, the dealer persuaded me to buy more of those highly reviewed subs, which sounded even worse.

Knowing what I do now, the speaker to beat would be a stack of servo-subs (Genesis, Velodyne or Rhymik) and a pair of MG20.7's. THe only downside would be that you have to want to listen pretty loudly as Maggies don't like being played quietly.

 

[microstrip]

(...) For the longest time I thought that nothing would ever come close to the midrange of a Quad ESl 63 ... Well... I have now heard a number of speakers that put this notion to rest: TAD, Magico, Wilson, JBL ( yes! horns ), Rockport, B&O (please don't laugh the Beo 90 is the real deal), Tidal, Dynaudio, Triangle, Harbeth, Von Schweikert, etc... You see that is a long list and there are many I may have forgotten... The list is 99% cone speakers.
(...)

Time for my humble I's . I still keep a pair of ESL63 as a reference speaker. Most of the time I try a new speaker in my room I get the the ESL63 back in service to re-calibrate my references. And I am not as optimist as you. When operated within the dynamic capability of the ELS63 I would like to know what are the TAD, Magico, Wilson or Dynaudio (brands I have reasonable experience with) specific models that are close to the midrange of the referred Quad, particularly when listening to the human voice.

Unfortunately I have never listened to a properly integrated system of EL63 plus subwoofer, using a low pass filter for the panels. This filter is needed to prevent bass frequencies from overloading the panel at peaks. I have owned Janis, Gradient Wilson and Martin Logan subs, and I felt I was compromising the sound of the panels with the subs, perhaps because of the quality of the crossovers. IMHO the midrange of the ESL63 properly amplified is also superior to any Martin Logan, Final or Soundlab, particularly in micro dynamics. Sometimes I also felt that some specific speakers such as the XLF or the Aida approached the Quad midrange when listening to some specific recordings, and become very enthusiast, but continued use enlarged the gap again.

And yes, after reading Marty enthusiastic report, trying the JLAudio CR1 crossover and the Gotham's with Quad's is high in my wish list . But I can not forget his Pipedream towers are line monopoles created from start to be operated with subs, and the ESL63 are point like dipoles. Two very different systems.

And yes, owning the ESL63 for more than 30 years makes me a biased listener ...

 

[microstrip]

(...) Knowing what I do now, the speaker to beat would be a stack of servo-subs (Genesis, Velodyne or Rhymik) and a pair of MG20.7's. THe only downside would be that you have to want to listen pretty loudly as Maggies don't like being played quietly.

Although I never listened to the 20.7 it is exactly my main reservation about the Maggies. They oblige you to listen too loud for my taste.

 

[bonzo75]

Although I never listened to the 20.7 it is exactly my main reservation about the Maggies. They oblige you to listen too loud for my taste.

Has the tone (realism), bass and dynamics improved from the older three pointers?

 

[ddk]

I have owned both Apogee Divas and Maegnepan. Similar technology, different sounding speakers... I prefer Maggies. I haven't heard Graz speakers I would like to. The Monolith and Sequel were OK by my book but nothing supreme. I needed a speaker that could do bass and midrange and treble. I needed full range and panel. During those times I was staunchly a tube person, so Apogee would not do it for me. They seemed to require Krell or equivalent ( I have never seen an Apogee /Mark Levinson combination, has anyone? ).

You have one here Franz! We seem to be on the same page regarding the Divas and ML, quality of ribbon bass driven full range and preferring tubes over ss. I actually tried Krell and Classé several times with the Divas and hated the sound and they didn't particularly drive them better than the VTL/Manley amps I had either. You're right that tube+Diva combination could be very nice but not enough. I knew that there was more to the speakers than what I was getting but there was also something very alluring about the Divas and why I kept them for years while many other excellent speakers came and went. There was beautiful tone with tubes, plenty of depth and the image went way beyond the sides of the speakers but I never had drama. Things changed drastically with the Levinson 33, suddenly the Divas went from the typical panel sound to something closer to large theater horns. The Divas energized the room like I never thought possible and filled it with sound. The transformation was uncanny the way the sound came to you and hit you in the gut like the real thing and the bass became very real big and voluptuous like the real thing, very natural. Problem with the Levinsons like most other high powered amps was that they were more about brute power than delicacy, great on some types of music but not so good when the music needed very gentle handling. That's when I stumbled on the Lamm M2.1, like a Shaolin master it has might, fluidity and grace. This is when I knew that I had it all with this combination, next obvious step was passive (didn't like the DAX) bi-amping with two pairs of M2.1s which was more of the same but still more natural. After 11 years with the Divas I was finally there but at the same time I realized that this is as good as it gets with solid state equipment so I reverted back to low powered tubes and SETs where my heart was always at.

And of course there are horns... A technology I took a long time to look at but that is likely my next move.

Whatever you buy make sure that they're efficient enough for average and low powered SETs, that's where the magic happens...

david

 

[bonzo75]

My final choices are duetta/diva for medium term or the horns universum. I don't plan to use a tube amp on the apogees but will have sufficient tubes in the chain. But apogee or horn is where it is for me. Always can demo a powerful tube amp to check, but that is hardly make or break. If it works, great

 

[bonzo75]

David, what was your room size for diva and FR? I assume this was when you were in N.Y.

 

[Zero000]

I have always wished Magnepan would do what MartinLogan did with the Neolith -- build the very best one-column speaker -- with the most rigid, heavy structure -- they can, and let the price chips fall where they may.

Agreed.

I resent them for suing Apogee, though, and getting away with it, when actually the technology is not that similar.

 

[Zero000]

One of the best speakers I have ever heard, especially for its size, is this:

Audionec "The Answer". See post #12.

It is phenomenal. Really. 88,000 Euros. It is totally world class. Right up there with the best speakers on the planet. Very good bass panel tech which is just astonishing, but the mid range and highs are world class too.

Seriously gentleman, it is genuinely excellent.

I'd forgotten about them but was obsessed with them for a while.

 

[Zero000]

A bit more here: http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?12255-Munich-Hi-End-2011-Hi-Fi-Show&p=136618&viewfull=1#post136618

They lose to Trios/basshorns in a big room due to lack of convincing scale. They easily trash Duos IMHO.

I just thought I'd mention them purely because they were obviously exceptional.

 

[ddk]

David, what was your room size for diva and FR? I assume this was when you were in N.Y.

Originally I had them all while I was living in Thailand and they were in all kinds of spaces. I never purchased the FR but had them on loan for a couple of months after I had the Divas for a year. Couldn't find any tube amps to drive the FR and the Krells they supplied with it were unlistenable so I returned them and stayed with the Divas. I dumped the Grands before I moved back to the States so I only had the Divas in NY. Last space they were in was a downtown loft about 40' x 25' x 16', they sounded best in this large room than any smaller ones I had them in before. They like breathing room.

david

 

[bonzo75]

Ok - I asked because if your FR room wasn't big enough it would not have sounded proper.

Also from what Henk said, Duettas and Divas his clients can set up easy. He warned me about FR that it would be a project to set up - biamping, some play with semi-active, etc. I don't think you need Krells for them. Krells (or electrocompaniets, levinsons), are required for Scintillas which drops to 1 ohm. Scintillas had, apparently, a very different house sound to Duetta/Diva/FR, and some liked it more or hated it.

 

[Steve williams]

How many different speakers did Apogee produce from lowest to top and MSRP if you can remember

 

[Zero000]

Ok - I asked because if your FR room wasn't big enough it would not have sounded proper.

Also from what Henk said, Duettas and Divas his clients can set up easy. He warned me about FR that it would be a project to set up - biamping, some play with semi-active, etc. I don't think you need Krells for them. Krells (or electrocompaniets, levinsons), are required for Scintillas which drops to 1 ohm. Scintillas had, apparently, a very different house sound to Duetta/Diva/FR, and some liked it more or hated it.

If you are worried about Duetta sterility, and I suspect the last Duettas you heard were mine, you absolutely must not used amps like Accuphase M-60s. Because they are forensic and very clean in their nature.

I'd strongly recommend a powerful tube amp as an option. That's why I keep mine. To switch between the two extremes.

 

[bonzo75]

If you are worried about Duetta sterility, and I suspect the last Duettas you heard were mine, you absolutely must not used amps like Accuphase M-60s. Because they are forensic and very clean in their nature.

I'd strongly recommend a powerful tube amp as an option. That's why I keep mine. To switch between the two extremes.

No, also a Scinnie, Christoph's stuido grands, another Diva I heard...they are all similar to yours. Henk's FR, Grands, and Duetta (yes, I heard his duetta, will post on it later)...have more involvement. That said, the owners of the other speakers don't seem to find that and like their mids.

 

[bonzo75]

How many different speakers did Apogee produce from lowest to top and MSRP if you can remember

They started with FR, then built the duetta and the diva, Diva was 9.5k - it was smaller than the FR but newer. Then came the Grand at 85k which then the costliest speaker, quite a jump from the Diva. Then came the smaller versions like studio grands and stages.

The Scintillas were built after the FR and had a different sound and required Krells.

There were very small models like calipers

 

[Zero000]

Interesting. Love to hear his Duetta. What you are saying sounds unlikely given he is using Graz ribbons and original MRT assemblies. Can't comment til I have heard his work, though.

What I will say is that of the three sets of Graz ribbons I have had, none of them have sounded the same. That is quite scary but also very true. He's constantly developing them, I am sure.