Speaker Challenge . . .

[ddk]

You can get tweeter ribbons, midrange ribbons and full-range ribbons from several speaker manufacturers.

You can get planar magnetic woofer panels from several speaker manufacturers.

You can get electrostatic speakers, both pure and hybrid, from several speaker manufacturers.

What is unique about the Apogees -- and what you cannot get from current speaker manufacturers -- is a ribbon woofer panel. I think the ribbon woofer panel, with its (to me) amazing and unique sonic characteristics, is really the competitive advantage, and unique selling point, of the Apogees.

Dear Ron,

What's unique about the Apogees is Ked, he's the one who single handedly raised them from the dead here otherwise Apogees are mostly long forgotten. Yes, they had some great attributes but getting them there was always difficult. Aside from some nostalgia and curiosity not sure how many of us who owned them in the past really want them back again. Personally I'm over all panels, IMO their limitations outweigh their benefits, specially the electrically charged types that can't handle volume and start buzzing like an electric fly killer when you crank it up a bit.

david

 

[ddk]

What I remember from every WA demo is that they crank the volume to ear bleed levels just to make sure you go deaf before hearing how many things are wrong with their setup!

 

[bonzo75]

Thanks David, at the same time, I disagree. After listening to everything, I have closed my speaker search - either a restored apogee or a SET horn. In ideal conditions, I would have both. And many those who still own apogees, seem to have among the highest level of satisfaction on the forums. Check the gon, audio asylum, and apogee forum. The restored ones imo are way superior anyway. After hearing the right apogees, it reminds of when I first heard well set up vinyl. Digital will never get there, no matter how much you try to get close

 

[microstrip]

(...) Personally I'm over all panels, IMO their limitations outweigh their benefits, specially the electrically charged types that can't handle volume and start buzzing like an electric fly killer when you crank it up a bit.

david

David,

For the type of music I listen my head starts buzzing before the Soundlabs!

But yes, for most audiophiles this would be a problem, particularly with electronic music having synthesized bass.

 

[ddk]

Thanks David, at the same time, I disagree. After listening to everything, I have closed my speaker search - either a restored apogee or a SET horn. In ideal conditions, I would have both. And many those who still own apogees, seem to have among the highest level of satisfaction on the forums. Check the gon, audio asylum, and apogee forum. The restored ones imo are way superior anyway. After hearing the right apogees, it reminds of when I first heard well set up vinyl. Digital will never get there, no matter how much you try to get close

Whatever floats your boat my friend but at least in this forum I still credit you for getting everyone interested.

david

 

[bonzo75]

David,

For the type of music I listen my head starts buzzing before the Soundlabs!

But yes, for most audiophiles this would be a problem, particularly with electronic music having synthesized bass.

Apogees play seriously loud. I have heard them in 14m * 4m room and 10m by 6m, both with tall ceilings. The duetta is loud as well.

 

[bonzo75]

Whatever floats your boat my friend but at least in this forum I still credit you for getting everyone interested.

david

Thanx. Both of us share the sentiment that we feel audio philia is otherwise too concentrated on newly marketed, over priced, magazine reviewed stuff, and it helps to get the truth as we see it out there

 

[kevinkwann]

David,

For the type of music I listen my head starts buzzing before the Soundlabs!

But yes, for most audiophiles this would be a problem, particularly with electronic music having synthesized bass.

For most music lovers too. All the Soundlabs speakers I've listened to over the years sound like electrostats--which is to say nothing like music. If you don't mind the dynamic limitations--both macro and micro--more power to you (and more power won't fix this issue by the way). Then there's the 2D, thin-as-paper images.

These speakers may meet your thought constructs about what music sound like, but I'd say two things about that: 1.) That's not what live music sounds like and 2.) That's an audiophile's, not a music lover's, perspective.

 

[kevinkwann]

What I remember from every WA demo is that they crank the volume to ear bleed levels just to make sure you go deaf before hearing how many things are wrong with their setup!

I've heard these speakers many times and this mirrors my experience exactly.

 

[microstrip]

For most music lovers too. All the Soundlabs speakers I've listened to over the years sound like electrostats--which is to say nothing like music. If you don't mind the dynamic limitations--both macro and micro--more power to you (and more power won't fix this issue by the way). Then there's the 2D, thin-as-paper images.

These speakers may meet your thought constructs about what music sound like, but I'd say two things about that: 1.) That's not what live music sounds like and 2.) That's an audiophile's, not a music lover's, perspective.

You were unlucky - one of the strong points of properly setup Soundlabs is their 3D images, with plenty of depth. It is funny that many people claim that their own preference is the music lover perspective and other preferences are the audiophile perspective ...

And yes, sound reproduction in stereo is about thought constructs ... It is known since long. All IMHO, surely.

 

[FrantzM]

Dear Ron,

What's unique about the Apogees is Ked, he's the one who single handedly raised them from the dead here otherwise Apogees are mostly long forgotten. Yes, they had some great attributes but getting them there was always difficult. Aside from some nostalgia and curiosity not sure how many of us who owned them in the past really want them back again. Personally I'm over all panels, IMO their limitations outweigh their benefits, specially the electrically charged types that can't handle volume and start buzzing like an electric fly killer when you crank it up a bit.

david

PC be damned!

I am however mostly in agreement regarding Apogees: They were good, they are good but speaker technology has evolved and more so than electronics IME. The nostalgia is strong and you will find a close to cult-following to many of those panels. There are some people who still swear by Acoustat for example... Acoustat were good then , they are not that great today, they have been surpassed
Horns are an interesting example. By their nature they couple better with air. Horns and their cousin wave-guides are acoustic transformers. They allow a better coupling of the transducer to the transmitting medium, in that case the air plus they can allow you to tailor directivity in ways panels or cones by themselves simply can't .. Physics, what many would like to think doesn;t seem to apply to the reproduction of sound via electro-mechanical means... On top of that there is in my mind that suspicion that higher sensitivity results in better dynamics or if you allow me to be a real audiophile, better reproduction of "micro-dynamics" while giving one a large berth on amplifier power, I favor high power even for high sensitivity speakers. When you add to a well designed horn multiple subs one can get rather close to what the real thing sounds like.
Yet (some) Panels remain a soft spot for me. As Gary Koh said, you drop a stack of subs with a 20.7 and frankly to match this you may have to spend 10 times more... Same with some horns, I don't believe they need to cost $600K to sound good. I have the JBL line in my line of sight...
As for the panels buzzing when asked to play loud .. Many stats are guilty of that. My experience with Soundlab is too limited to opine but most other 'stats I have heard don't take high SPL at the listener position too kindly. Horns don't have any problems with that, nor do the better cones. When it comes to play from soft to unhealthy loud (even if real) horns have no peer and now they image better and now they are getting less expensive and available...

 

[bonzo75]

Too many inconsistencies. When people talk about acoustats, it's coz of the value they deliver for 1 or 2k. Apogee are more bassy and dynamic than many anemic cones which take forever to move, and unlike Maggie's, which don't play loud and lack dynamics, which is what actually Gary mentioned more diplomatically than me .

The use if SET for horns is because DHT valves used in SET have very high quality and better micro without sacrificing any macro (which happens because if high sensitivity if a good horn)

 

[bonzo75]

And yes, speaker tech hasn't necessarily moved ahead. Even with Logans, some prefer the older models.

With Wilson, I definitely preferred the watt puppy 5 and Alexandria to any sasha or Alexia I have heard (I haven't heard the latest Sasha but that is a moot point)

 

[microstrip]

(...) Aside from some nostalgia and curiosity not sure how many of us who owned them in the past really want them back again. (...)

Perhaps this is the real and definitive test. Because of nostalgia and curiosity (perhaps also some money saving temptation ...) I have re-visited several old speakers I had owned just to find after a very short period that they were not really what I was wanting. I can include in this list the Sonus Faber Extrema, Maggie's, the Apogee Duetta Signature and the B&W 801 series 3.

 

[Zero000]

What I remember from every WA demo is that they crank the volume to ear bleed levels just to make sure you go deaf before hearing how many things are wrong with their setup!

Well the setup I heard at Munich was extremely good by my reckoning. But then you probably haven't heard that particular config.

The LS4 IS odd, though, as they try to damp the rear wave. That might not work at all. Not heard it. Just think it looks interesting and worth checking out. If the free standing one doesn't try to do the same... it might be good.

 

[Zero000]

Dear Ron,

What's unique about the Apogees is Ked, he's the one who single handedly raised them from the dead here otherwise Apogees are mostly long forgotten. Yes, they had some great attributes but getting them there was always difficult. Aside from some nostalgia and curiosity not sure how many of us who owned them in the past really want them back again. Personally I'm over all panels, IMO their limitations outweigh their benefits, specially the electrically charged types that can't handle volume and start buzzing like an electric fly killer when you crank it up a bit.

david

That's pretty ripe considering the relics you own.

 

[ddk]

That's pretty ripe considering the relics you own.

One relic has nothing to do with the other.

david

 

[kevinkwann]

One relic has nothing to do with the other.

david

I hate to be so agreeable...but AGREED.

 

[ddk]

Perhaps this is the real and definitive test. Because of nostalgia and curiosity (perhaps also some money saving temptation ...) I have re-visited several old speakers I had owned just to find after a very short period that they were not really what I was wanting. I can include in this list the Sonus Faber Extrema, Maggie's, the Apogee Duetta Signature and the B&W 801 series 3.

Very few things have real longevity like your A1's...

david

 

[ddk]

I hate to be so agreeable...but AGREED.

From another relic,



david