Speaker Oasis...Bionor

[Believe High Fidelity]

Speakers are an issue Francisco, you're limited but there are some excellent choices around but at the same time one can make the same argument for speakers, just look how limited you are with the Soundlabs and Peter with his Magico Minis! Not true about digital and SETs I listen to a lot of CDs, analog vs digital is a universal argument. Just to be clear we're not talking about flea weight 3-8 watt 300B's with rolled off top and bottom, good SETs that do full range cost.

david

Well it also depends on the listener. For some inexplicable reason a lot of folks listen at much lower volumes or have smaller rooms nearfield that wouldn't necessitate a heavy load to the amp.

We did THE Show Newport with only a 60W SET Stereo amp driving Vandersteen 5a's which are a 4ohm 86db sensitivity speaker. In a 300sqft ish room it worked very well even when playing Mahler or anything else for that matter.

So other than an MBL or larger rooms I think a SET would be just fine

 

[morricab]

David,

One of my concerns is that after considering opinions in this forum it seems that only a very limited number of speakers, of scarce availability, seems really compatible with SETs. And, although I love listening to vinyl, when I read how much better they sounded with vinyl than with digital or that they only came to life with vinyl I feel some think uneasy in the air.

Well, I don't know about any of those assertions. THere are numerous compatible speakers and they don't need vinyl to sound great...although good vinyl nearly always sounds better. I get very good sound from vinyl and digital.

 

[morricab]

I would say that isn't true.

I've shown you a Duetta needs 75 Watts to hit 93 DB C-weighted. A Caliper will need more. Unless the KR amps are massively lying about power output that is. Or they can dump quite a bit at massive distortion levels.

Prove me wrong.

Umm, I have measured the levels with my Behringer DEQ2496 with calibrated microphone...don't know how else to prove that to you. I was hitting mid-90s without audible clipping. You do know the later Signatures were a few db more sensitive than the original Duetta and Caliper (approx. 4db to be more precise).

1989-1992

Original Retail $3295

Height 121 cm

Width 61 cm

Impedance 3 ohms

Bass driver
Aluminium/Kapton panel

Midrange/Tweeter
Aluminium/Kapton (3 segment)

Max Sound Level
103dB

Sensitivity @ 3m
84dB

Frequency response
40Hz (-3dB) to 20kHz

So with an in-room sensitivity of 84 db at 3 meters (about my listening distance) that is 87db for 2 watts, 90db for 4 watts, 93db for 8 watts, 96db for 16 watts and 99db for 32 watts.

The max SPL of 103db and the recommended power of 100 watts then match quite well because if you follow the progression it would be 102 db for 64 watts and that extra db would cost another 20-30 watts to get there.

Later Apogees like the Studio Grand are about 3 or 4 db more sensitive still and an even easier load so they can get pretty loud with a 30 watt amp in fact.

Finally, KR amps probably can do quite a bit more than their rating with significant distortion...but I doubt you hear it at high volumes if it is not obvious clipping. Where you REALLY need low distortion and low order harmonics is at LOW volume. Cheever makes this clear from his SPL dependent model and Geddes makes this clear as well with regard to his discussions on masking.

 

[morricab]

I would say that isn't true.

I've shown you a Duetta needs 75 Watts to hit 93 DB C-weighted. A Caliper will need more. Unless the KR amps are massively lying about power output that is. Or they can dump quite a bit at massive distortion levels.

Prove me wrong.

Another quote from the same article:
while the in-room figure is typically 86 or 87dB. That is still a low figure, but there’s no questioning the Signature’s increased sensitivity.

I had Caliper Signatures, not Calipers.

 

[DaveC]

David,

One of my concerns is that after considering opinions in this forum it seems that only a very limited number of speakers, of scarce availability, seems really compatible with SETs. And, although I love listening to vinyl, when I read how much better they sounded with vinyl than with digital or that they only came to life with vinyl I feel some think uneasy in the air.

I'd agree, not a lot of speakers are designed with SET amps in mind but there are some good choices. I built an amp for the speakers I'm designing and 7 watts of SET power is plenty since the speaker is 105 dB sensitive and the SET amp only covers from 400 Hz on up.

Also, it's hard to really characterize a SET sound as much of the result is from the driver section. Most SET amps suffer from inferior driver and power supply design which contributes to the "tube sound" but it is possible to design a very clean sounding SET... my SET sounds less "tubey" than some SS amps I've tried as the driver is very low distortion and has it's own power supply. One big advantage of tube amps is the high voltage power supplies don't require large value caps so modern, advanced film caps like Clarity TC series can completely replace electrolytics without spending a fortune.

 

[morricab]

Well it also depends on the listener. For some inexplicable reason a lot of folks listen at much lower volumes or have smaller rooms nearfield that wouldn't necessitate a heavy load to the amp.

We did THE Show Newport with only a 60W SET Stereo amp driving Vandersteen 5a's which are a 4ohm 86db sensitivity speaker. In a 300sqft ish room it worked very well even when playing Mahler or anything else for that matter.

So other than an MBL or larger rooms I think a SET would be just fine

I have the 25 watt Diana in for review now and we will soon test it with conventional loudspeakers (I currently have only horns in the house) but I expect it to do a smashing job.

 

[bonzo75]

The KR integrated I heard on the studio grands at Christophs was doing tone and bloom brilliant but did not have the control and scale for choral and orchestral.

 

[bonzo75]

I compared the Diana to a modded Jolida on the Tune Audio Anima. He (the dealer) had also shifted from the KR to Aries Cerat and he preferred the latter much more. The Jolida had more power and bass but the Diana just sounded better on everything else, it had just such great tone, decay, etc, and you hardly noticed the lower bass compared to the Jolida. However, would that hold true on all speakers, I doubt it.

 

[DaveC]

Well it also depends on the listener. For some inexplicable reason a lot of folks listen at much lower volumes or have smaller rooms nearfield that wouldn't necessitate a heavy load to the amp.

We did THE Show Newport with only a 60W SET Stereo amp driving Vandersteen 5a's which are a 4ohm 86db sensitivity speaker. In a 300sqft ish room it worked very well even when playing Mahler or anything else for that matter.

So other than an MBL or larger rooms I think a SET would be just fine

Vandys are an easy load but other speakers with more complex crossovers have much bumpier impedance and phase plots, these won't give an even frequency response with a higher output impedance amp and won't be super happy with the reactive load.

Also, IMO a system should be capable of hitting realistic SPLs, like 120 dB peaks at the listening position. That'll eliminate a large number of possibilities.

 

[ddk]

Well it also depends on the listener. For some inexplicable reason a lot of folks listen at much lower volumes or have smaller rooms nearfield that wouldn't necessitate a heavy load to the amp.

We did THE Show Newport with only a 60W SET Stereo amp driving Vandersteen 5a's which are a 4ohm 86db sensitivity speaker. In a 300sqft ish room it worked very well even when playing Mahler or anything else for that matter.

So other than an MBL or larger rooms I think a SET would be just fine

Josh,

I wasn't there so I can't comment but the 5a's are semi active speakers. Manufacturer's spec for Diana is 25W sine, 50w square, what does this actually mean?

david

 

[microstrip]

Speakers are an issue Francisco, you're limited but there are some excellent choices around but at the same time one can make the same argument for speakers, just look how limited you are with the Soundlabs and Peter with his Magico Minis! Not true about digital and SETs I listen to a lot of CDs, analog vs digital is a universal argument. Just to be clear we're not talking about flea weight 3-8 watt 300B's with rolled off top and bottom, good SETs that do full range cost.

david

Well, I don't know about any of those assertions. THere are numerous compatible speakers and they don't need vinyl to sound great...although good vinyl nearly always sounds better. I get very good sound from vinyl and digital.

Well, I was expecting a long list of currently available speakers with true SET compatibility to prove I am wrong and fuel the thread ...

BTW, the major thing that limits my Soundlab's is their enormous size - sometimes I would love a smaller speaker to play around. And yes, the excellent Magico Mini IIs's playing upstairs are critical in terms of amplification - it is why I am trying to sell them. Too exigent for a secondary speaker.

 

[fas42]

Vandys are an easy load but other speakers with more complex crossovers have much bumpier impedance and phase plots, these won't give an even frequency response with a higher output impedance amp and won't be super happy with the reactive load.

Also, IMO a system should be capable of hitting realistic SPLs, like 120 dB peaks at the listening position. That'll eliminate a large number of possibilities.

The only amplifier I've heard recently that really impressed me in raw form was the Bryston 28BSST - excellent tone at all volumes, and capable of creating intense sound, not the normal loud and distorted hifi variety. This did the sitting next to the drummer having a go, realistically - no-one was listening; because it didn't sound like an audio system should - a big mistake by the demonstrator, of course ...

 

[morricab]

Vandys are an easy load but other speakers with more complex crossovers have much bumpier impedance and phase plots, these won't give an even frequency response with a higher output impedance amp and won't be super happy with the reactive load.

Also, IMO a system should be capable of hitting realistic SPLs, like 120 dB peaks at the listening position. That'll eliminate a large number of possibilities.

120db? In a home environment this is ridiculously loud. Even in most concert halls this is far too loud. I have never been to a live classical concert where they hit these levels...perhaps 10db lower than that. Of course I wasn't in the front row...somewhere mid-hall usually. Live unamplified and amplified Jazz never gets this loud either (wouldn't be permitted anyway by Swiss law which limits average SPL levels to below 93db...when they push that limit it is usually too loud to enjoy).

 

[morricab]

Josh,

I wasn't there so I can't comment but the 5a's are semi active speakers. Manufacturer's spec for Diana is 25W sine, 50w square, what does this actually mean?

david

They were using the Diana Forte, which is a big brother of the Diana. The Forte is a parallel SET that makes 60 watts.

 

[morricab]

Well, I was expecting a long list of currently available speakers with true SET compatibility to prove I am wrong and fuel the thread ...

BTW, the major thing that limits my Soundlab's is their enormous size - sometimes I would love a smaller speaker to play around. And yes, the excellent Magico Mini IIs's playing upstairs are critical in terms of amplification - it is why I am trying to sell them. Too exigent for a secondary speaker.

You know, it takes time to gather a list for such a response. You are capable of google searching just the same as the rest of us and this is not exactly a day job posting here (ok, for some it is close). I think with your experience you already have a good idea where to begin looking.

 

[Believe High Fidelity]

Josh,

I wasn't there so I can't comment but the 5a's are semi active speakers. Manufacturer's spec for Diana is 25W sine, 50w square, what does this actually mean?

david

Little too technical to get into for a forum post, but your welcome to give me a ring if you really want to go through it. Suffice to say it is not to be confused with the Diana Forte which is 60-65w depending on bias.

The easy answer is to call attention to when you hear a reviewer say "It is rated at x, but the manufacturer is being conservative" this is because a sinewave is not at all what a music signal is.

 

[Believe High Fidelity]

Well, I was expecting a long list of currently available speakers with true SET compatibility to prove I am wrong and fuel the thread ...

BTW, the major thing that limits my Soundlab's is their enormous size - sometimes I would love a smaller speaker to play around. And yes, the excellent Magico Mini IIs's playing upstairs are critical in terms of amplification - it is why I am trying to sell them. Too exigent for a secondary speaker.

Too bad you are in Portugal. I am looking at a pair of test speakers and the Mini II's are on my shortlist since they are difficult to drive. Those and the Apogees which is why I am following this thread with so much interest

 

[Zero000]

Umm, I have measured the levels with my Behringer DEQ2496 with calibrated microphone...don't know how else to prove that to you. I was hitting mid-90s without audible clipping. You do know the later Signatures were a few db more sensitive than the original Duetta and Caliper (approx. 4db to be more precise).

1989-1992

Original Retail $3295

Height 121 cm

Width 61 cm

Impedance 3 ohms

Bass driver
Aluminium/Kapton panel

Midrange/Tweeter
Aluminium/Kapton (3 segment)

Max Sound Level
103dB

Sensitivity @ 3m
84dB

Frequency response
40Hz (-3dB) to 20kHz

So with an in-room sensitivity of 84 db at 3 meters (about my listening distance) that is 87db for 2 watts, 90db for 4 watts, 93db for 8 watts, 96db for 16 watts and 99db for 32 watts.

The max SPL of 103db and the recommended power of 100 watts then match quite well because if you follow the progression it would be 102 db for 64 watts and that extra db would cost another 20-30 watts to get there.

Later Apogees like the Studio Grand are about 3 or 4 db more sensitive still and an even easier load so they can get pretty loud with a 30 watt amp in fact.

Finally, KR amps probably can do quite a bit more than their rating with significant distortion...but I doubt you hear it at high volumes if it is not obvious clipping. Where you REALLY need low distortion and low order harmonics is at LOW volume. Cheever makes this clear from his SPL dependent model and Geddes makes this clear as well with regard to his discussions on masking.

On the historical website the efficiency of Caliper and Cal Sig is quoted at 84DB. I think that is an error. It even talks about the uplift in efficiency, which I was aware of anyway. .
I was really talking real world load. The video I took shows 93 DB peaks at around 75 Watts for the Duetta, but that is with highly modulated bass, not 1KHz, which is where efficiency calcs are generally done. If you watch that video, it drops to about 3 Watts for a simple guitar strum but subjectively that is still pretty loud. Bass is where the power needs to be to play at volume.

I'm not gonna argue the point. But I do know I tried a 50 Watt PP valve amp and it just died on Duettas - completely unable to play at realistic volume. A Graaf 50/50.

 

[microstrip]

You know, it takes time to gather a list for such a response. You are capable of google searching just the same as the rest of us and this is not exactly a day job posting here (ok, for some it is close). I think with your experience you already have a good idea where to begin looking.

Well, I am interested in the opinion of people and talking to them, not that of search engines or just mine ...

And usually audiophiles are eager to suggest their preferences, even at the end of a busy day.

 

[bonzo75]

On the historical website the efficiency of Caliper and Cal Sig is quoted at 84DB. I think that is an error. It even talks about the uplift in efficiency, which I was aware of anyway. .
I was really talking real world load. The video I took shows 93 DB peaks at around 75 Watts for the Duetta, but that is with highly modulated bass, not 1KHz, which is where efficiency calcs are generally done. If you watch that video, it drops to about 3 Watts for a simple guitar strum but subjectively that is still pretty loud. Bass is where the power needs to be to play at volume.

I'm not gonna argue the point. But I do know I tried a 50 Watt PP valve amp and it just died on Duettas - completely unable to play at realistic volume. A Graaf 50/50.

I once tried an 80w Einstein on Analysis Omega. Mahler 2 starts slowly, then takes off. We tried thrice, every time before take off the amp would shut down.