We tried to explain TT and digital to Frantz and others so many times
- you need to listen
Speaker Oasis...Bionor
- Thread starter ALF
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We tried to explain TT and digital to Frantz and others so many times
- you need to listen
Understood, and I agree that there is no substitute for listening. But absent a tour like the one you have been on for a while, it helps to read impressions in forums. The pronouncements in this thread sound so definitive, that I thought it would be interesting to read a description of what is meant. Typical analog versus typical digital is pretty easy to describe: A warmer, more natural sound, less hard or glassy. Resolution, noise level, control, bass extension and power seem better with digital until you get to the higher level analog, etc, etc. Then, the top analog just sounds more natural than digital, though top digital is sounding quite excellent recently. Those are just my words, others may be different.
I have heard lots of push/pull tubes with cone speakers versus SS Class A and AB. I have also heard SETs with high efficient speakers, even SETs with panels, but I do not have the listening experience to separate the influence of the speaker or rest of the system to isolate exactly how a good SET sounds different from a good single ended Class A SS amp driving the same, efficient speaker. For the sake of this discussion thread, simply writing "night and day" difference does not help support the argument for those who don't have as extensive listening experiences.
I have a friend who owns and prefers tubes to SS. Yet, he has recently heard some SS amps that he tells me do basically everything that a good tube amp does, namely, big, open, effortless sound, without artifacts and audible distortion, beautiful midrange, extended, sweet highs, great dynamics, flow etc. and yet sounds real, convincing, natural, etc. Just an example.
And there are those who hear and greatly prefer either Class A or AB, and either SET or Push-Pull. So much so that they choose amplifier first, then speakers, while others choose speakers first then get the appropriate amplifier. When my non audio friends ask me why do I only listen to my turntable, I may be thinking that if they simply heard the difference they would understand, but I still try to explain to them how it sounds different, especially when they ask for an explanation.
The Analysis Amphitryon planar system I mentioned with Pathos TT is in your corner, near Boston South station. You should listen to it. Very different sound. Since you are driving, you can take a more high powered pass with you, as well as Ian's CAT. Hell, maybe I can coordinate to come over that weekend and even compare yours and Ian's cartridges
IMO, implementation trumps topology. Personally, I'd probably always go with a low power SET and efficient speakers but I've heard some really nice PP tube amps... At the last RMAF one of the rooms I was in used dc10 speakers and Audio Tekne 211 PP amps, this was really nice. Also, there will come a time when class D will be able to sound anyway the designer likes and could be indistinguishable from a good SET, just with unlimited power and over 90% efficiency.
Just to remember that the Aelius is a push pull - the single ended member of the family is the ultra expensive SET 100.
Yes am aware, and that is supposed to be golden. I was looking at Aelius to check if it could do the best of tube and SS thing. But I would rather go with one or the other
We tried to explain TT and digital to Frantz and others so many times
bonzo75
I was a TT proponent a few years ago ... I have had serious TTs during my audiophile life.. I still have a very good TT (Technics SP-10 MK2 in custom plinth) and 2 excellent tonearms ( Triplanar and SME) .. I listen to analog once in a while but remain in the digital camp ... I listen and don't share your POV and you'll be surprised how many are in the same camp...
To sum up my current views on Audio reproduction
Digital based on PC and separated DAC. PC controlled by ROON
SS (Burmester 911)
High Power amplification >200 wpc even with high sensitivity speakers.
horns or Constant Directivity speakers... Open to other speaker technologies that would convince me ...
Multi-subs, cones of course, sealed subs with DSP and DRC ( Acourate likely , perhaps miniDSP) Looking into DIY subs, however much we make of a sub they're not that difficult to make..
Room treatment but specific to speakers and room construction.
Headphones (There I don't mind and have Tubes
, even a SET !!!! )More than by habits and for (perhaps) subjectives reasons: AC Power treatment , in my case Dual Conversion Data Center Grade UPS (filtered, stabilized 120 VAC/60/10 KVA)
No Preamp (likely Burmester 808 if found at a good price , else may drop the entire idea of a Preamp) or Speakers yet .. search is ongoing
At this point in time I want to listen to the JBL 4367, the JBL K2 MS 9500, JBL Array 1400, Geddes New Summa 15, Magico S7 and the JBL M2 System complete with its Crown amps
Why don't you try the Danley Soundlabs, it looks like a PA speaker, and you can even hang it in two corners of the ceiling, with a sub down on the floor, and they run it with Crown like high powered amps. It sounds pretty nice, there is music all through the room, a bit like live acoustic music coming through a PA system. If I was not into OCDed audiophilia I would have bought that.
My dream - a Pathos TT with ten times more power ... Some of the best treble I have ever listened in the SoundLab's.
The best way I can describe it is that the better SETs are more natural sounding than any other type of amplifier, tube and ss. It isn't about the mids, highs or lows but the entire frequency range. With better ones like the Lamms there's no coloration, no additional sweetness or rolled off tops and they do bass like you've never heard before. Full bodied, fleshy and natural, Class A ss and even push/pull tubes not even close. But you have to look at it from a whole system experience, the front end has to do its part and the speakers have to be sensitive enough to deliver full range dynamics with ease without attracting attention to any part of the sound, that's the challenge and half active speakers don't cut it for me. Without the right speakers you're better off with other types of amps, even so called high powered pure SETs like Wavacs can't drive difficult speakers they are nonlinear after a certain wattage and their sound becomes very distorted when. Hybrid SETs have other characteristics and don't share all same qualities of a pure SET specially of the full heated Triode ones. Frankly I don't get the point of First Watt, they're expensive don't sound like a SET and can't drive most speakers. At the end of the day there are good and bad designs of every kind, you need to experience the good ones and make your own conclusions.
david
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I appreciate the common sense, David!
It seems sometimes SET afficionados go overboard with their assertions. I love my low wattage push pull triode amps too, but I will be the first one to acknowlegde (and have done so repeatedly) their limitations when it comes to the allowable speaker load. On my high sensitivity monitors though they shine -- I just love them.
David,
One of my concerns is that after considering opinions in this forum it seems that only a very limited number of speakers, of scarce availability, seems really compatible with SETs. And, although I love listening to vinyl, when I read how much better they sounded with vinyl than with digital or that they only came to life with vinyl I feel some think uneasy in the air.
Speakers are an issue Francisco, you're limited but there are some excellent choices around but at the same time one can make the same argument for speakers, just look how limited you are with the Soundlabs and Peter with his Magico Minis! Not true about digital and SETs I listen to a lot of CDs, analog vs digital is a universal argument. Just to be clear we're not talking about flea weight 3-8 watt 300B's with rolled off top and bottom, good SETs that do full range cost.
david
I would say that isn't true.
I've shown you a Duetta needs 75 Watts to hit 93 DB C-weighted. A Caliper will need more. Unless the KR amps are massively lying about power output that is. Or they can dump quite a bit at massive distortion levels.
Prove me wrong.
The SET100 is the one i heard with YG Anat Ref IIs. I was not familiar with the system, so could not dissect contributions...but could certainly appreciate the overall quality of sound i was hearing. I suspect the YG Anat IIs at the volume we tried a few times (loud), the SET100s did very well and never seemed to run out of steam, nor did the character of the sound 'tighten up' or seem restricted.
Ah ok, did not realized you had heard the SET. They controlled YGs well? YG are a tough load I think
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