Speaker Oasis...Bionor

[morricab]

At his place, it's a travel from Zurich airport. He had the 16a and another WE, I think 22, both crossed to the same woofers.

I must admit that it wasn't as integrated sounding as my own system...but I didn't get to hear the 16a there.

 

[bonzo75]

And yet you want to go to Divas?? As good as they are, and I know, they will not deliver what you heard. There are more domestically friendly horns that will get closer to that experience you had...and Zu won't deliver it. The Grands also won't deliver that emotional connection you heard...

Incorrect. The Apogees and WE are both my favorite speakers, and the Apogee will deliver better top to down. If I had sufficient money, I would have a big room with Apogees firing down the room and WE on the long wall. No disrespect, Brad, but you haven't heard Henk's Grands yet. Each apogee sounds very different. There is NO good domestically friendly horn that comes close. Small horns are boring and lacking in bass, and try to stretch their midrange horn more than required. Trios with bass horns, in dynamics and bass get close, in tone not. Animas lose out a lot on bass, have on some magic tone, and hORNS autotech are good alternatives to Duettas depending on the room, but not to bigger Apogees. The emotional connection you get on a well integrated Beethoven's 9th on an Apogee far outperforms these "domestic horns" with broken up bass, so does the realism and density in the mids. Each of these big horns has its own magic depending on its colour (and they are way more colored). The wannabe horns are the worst and no candle to duettas

I have already suggested to Marc to audition both. And yes, yesterday I did tell Ron a horn (trio) might suit Marc's room better, but that was not because of the emotional connection. It was simply due to the fact that since he has ceiling height issues, his 40*18 feet room will be cut down to a very small triangle with an Apogee, vs having a much wider triangle, and hence stage, with a trio. Does not mean its a better speaker

 

[fas42]

Yeah it was still quite good with some music but not like years before. I still think the Living Voice is it for modern speakers. This year was not quite as good but close enough to the year before that had our jaws dropping.

I have heard at length the Line Magnetic WE replicas with LM and AcousticPlan amps and that is one of the best 40k speakers I have heard. The LM219 is a steal!

For those who may be listening, , this is the Big Answer! It's the System, Stupid!, one may say - merely assembling all the "right" gear in the "right" room and playing the "right" recordings guarantees ... nothing!! The "perfect" setup may be a miserable failure, and a dodgy nothing in the next room may be producing magic - it always ... depends!!

This means that a setup will produce what is wanted, if enough effort is made to debug everything that is hindering competent sound - if one is certain that only using the right sort of gear is going to be the answer then you're making life very hard for yourself ...

 

[morricab]

Incorrect. The Apogees and WE are both my favorite speakers, and the Apogee will deliver better top to down. If I had sufficient money, I would have a big room with Apogees firing down the room and WE on the long wall. No disrespect, Brad, but you haven't heard Henk's Grands yet. Each apogee sounds very different. There is NO good domestically friendly horn that comes close. Small horns are boring and lacking in bass, and try to stretch their midrange horn more than required. Trios with bass horns, in dynamics and bass get close, in tone not. Animas lose out a lot on bass, have on some magic tone, and hORNS autotech are good alternatives to Duettas depending on the room, but not to bigger Apogees. The emotional connection you get on a well integrated Beethoven's 9th on an Apogee far outperforms these "domestic horns" with broken up bass, so does the realism and density in the mids. Each of these big horns has its own magic depending on its colour (and they are way more colored). The wannabe horns are the worst and no candle to duettas

I have already suggested to Marc to audition both. And yes, yesterday I did tell Ron a horn (trio) might suit Marc's room better, but that was not because of the emotional connection. It was simply due to the fact that since he has ceiling height issues, his 40*18 feet room will be cut down to a very small triangle with an Apogee, vs having a much wider triangle, and hence stage, with a trio. Does not mean its a better speaker

Incorrect?? It is my opinion, so how can it be flatly incorrect...I think you meant you disagree, which is fine, but incorrect?? Pretty bold of you. I get you think Henk's system is the end all for large classical music and I will be the first to admit that big Apogees and big electrostats will do a better job of recreating the scale of large works in terms of space, soundstage and such. However, they are not really capturing the full dynamic envelope and this can be heard when compared to a large horn. I love imaging and soundstaging as much as anyone, which is why I have had a fair number of large planar speakers (AudioStatic, Acoustat, Apogee and Infinity IRS Beta) but I also understand their limitations dynamically.

While I have not heard Henk's Grands, I have heard refurbished Grands with superior amplification (my opinion, all NAT...both 211 based with Utopia pre and transmitter based with Symmetrical pre and great sources) to what Henk employs on his Grand system. I have also heard a pre-refurbishment version of that system in a large room, which was indeed one of the best sounds I have heard, but again it had better electronics (again my opinion) than at Henk's. Also, I have heard Full Ranges at Henk's augmented with 2 Velodyne DD18 subs. He had the same STAX and Plinius amps but different sources. It was a bit of a cold sounding system, lacking musicality.

I have also heard a large Full Range system in Germany with very good Sphinx Project 16 amps...but a poor preamp and the sound was also a bit cold and uninvolving.

Also, I have heard at great length Divas with numerous electronics, tube and SS and it can work wonders but again the sound is more for the head than the heart.

My own Caliper Signatures were quite good in my smallish room but they were overshadowed by larger Acoustats that were actually more coherent sounding and also appealed more emotionally to me...

Small horns are not boring but they will lack deep bass usually if they are actually having a horn bass. Have you heard the Aries Cerat horn system? It is not small but not huge either and it is anything but boring...it is alive! I moved to horns only when I found some that have the transparency and opennes of great planars and offer that extra level of dynamic contrast. The fact that I haven't heard Henk's exact Grand setup doesn't mean I don't have a good idea what it sounds like. In addition, I have lived with very fine large planar speakers as well as "small" horns so I am speaking with in-depth knowledge from both sides of the coin.

I have no doubt that DDKs Klangfilm speakers are the bomb. What I heard from some deceptively simple looking WEs a year ago was damn impressive. However, there are some modern designs that will give a run for the money.

Have you a chance to hear the Analysis Audio Amphytryon? That might be a good modern alternative to the Diva. A Grand is really an updated Diva on a huge custom sub with a bunch of active xover stuff in-between (the achilles heel IMO), just like a Studio Grand is an updated Duetta Signature on a sub and a mini-grand is a Stage on a sub.

 

[bonzo75]

I have heard the Grands with the NATs at Florian's

I have heard 3 Amphitryons with different set ups and mods. In different rooms. Given that an Amphi requires a large room that will house an FR, for me it is game over. You will find past posts of me advocating Analysis over Apogees, because I had not heard the right restores. Even Analysis have to be modded, btw - the US distro mods them pretty well, if you hear any of the ones in the US they will be modded, and the UK distro has also modded his Omega (which he drives with the Transmitters).

I have heard the FR system in Germany you mention.

And I have heard many large horns. Small horns are a parody, IMO. I actually find it amusing some of the horns I respect even choose to make their smaller brethren. I would buy any random cone speaker over them in a flash.

Having heard different apogees, I just won't extrapolate one experience to another. Florian's are a completely different refurb in a much smaller room. The room is one of the most important criteria for the big apogees, far more than the difference between a Plinius and a NAT. I went there because I was already impressed with Grands, and wanted to check if NATs could drive an apogee and if they would work in a small room. He has a great set up but is obviously compromised by where he has to live.

 

[morricab]

I have heard the Grands with the NATs at Florian's

I have heard 3 Amphitryons with different set ups and mods. In different rooms. Given that an Amphi requires a large room that will house an FR, for me it is game over. You will find past posts of me advocating Analysis over Apogees, because I had not heard the right restores. Even Analysis have to be modded, btw - the US distro mods them pretty well, if you hear any of the ones in the US they will be modded, and the UK distro has also modded his Omega (which he drives with the Transmitters).

I have heard the FR system in Germany you mention.

And I have heard many large horns. Small horns are a parody, IMO. I actually find it amusing some of the horns I respect even choose to make their smaller brethren. I would buy any random cone speaker over them in a flash.

Having heard different apogees, I just won't extrapolate one experience to another. Florian's are a completely different refurb in a much smaller room. The room is one of the most important criteria for the big apogees, far more than the difference between a Plinius and a NAT. I went there because I was already impressed with Grands, and wanted to check if NATs could drive an apogee and if they would work in a small room. He has a great set up but is obviously compromised by where he has to live.

You never heard the Grands before he had them restored. Then he had them in a big room and also with nice amps (Sphinx). Nevermind that though, the problem I hear is an electronics one (specifically the Grand active Xover) not a speaker presentation problem from the room. That was exactly what I did not hear when he had them in the pre-restored condition because the Apogee Xover was broken. He was using a Diva passive xover and an Audio Research tube subwoofer xover (I didn't even know they had made one until I saw this one) and two Sphinx Project 14s (one that was formerly mine). He also was using a SPhinx Project 32 cd player (nice machine) with BB PCM1704s at that time. That didn't sound electronic at all, unless he activated the room correction in his TACT RCS2.2, you could hear the electronic haze immediately. To a lesser degree that is what I hear in Florian's current set up and it robs that last bit of realism. I would agree that big orchestra sounds a squashed in a smaller room but a Jazz ensemble or Piano trio can still sound extremely lifelike.

"And I have heard many large horns. Small horns are a parody, IMO. I actually find it amusing some of the horns I respect even choose to make their smaller brethren. I would buy any random cone speaker over them in a flash. "

For example?? Are you referring to Avantgarde? Cessaro? Who else?

My horns are not so large but I can assure the sound they produce is no parody of anything. They will do large orchestra just fine and with plenty of weight...perhaps not at front row volume levels but that is ok...no speaker can do a truly realistic orchestra at front row levels. Does my small room affect the expansiveness of the soundstage? Yes it does to some extent. However, imaging and layering of the sound is just fine and dynamics have life-like impact. Does it sound more realistic with smaller than orchestral music? Yes it does but mainly again due to room not speaker capability. For electronic music I sometimes augment with my Mirage servo sub. You are welcome to come and visit if you would like.

 

[bonzo75]

Ok I get your point on Tact and not having heard his Grands before the restore. For me a big thing about Apogees is the scale, and the integrated slam and bass with the ribbon tone. I listen to orchestral at 85 - 90db.

I have heard the Odeon Nr.28, not the 32. I heard them with NAF, Einstein, and KR, using NAT Magnetostat and Jadis as preamps. Not for me.

Yes I don't like duos at all, love the Trios. I don't like Tune Audios smaller models but love the Animas. I like the hORNS Universum but not their fp15 though I see why some people would need them for very small rooms, and see them as better version of Audio Note AN-E type of speakers, but not for me. Difference between Cessaro models is big at every leap. I haven't heard the real big Acapellas, but again, the medium ones only do midrange, the 150k+ ones might be doing more. There are many DIY and VoTT horns I heard, all lacked something or the other. Many had something that was very attractive, which is what made them so frustrating.

 

[morricab]

Ok I get your point on Tact and not having heard his Grands before the restore. For me a big thing about Apogees is the scale, and the integrated slam and bass with the ribbon tone. I listen to orchestral at 85 - 90db.

I have heard the Odeon Nr.28, not the 32. I heard them with NAF, Einstein, and KR, using NAT Magnetostat and Jadis as preamps. Not for me.

Yes I don't like duos at all, love the Trios. I don't like Tune Audios smaller models but love the Animas. I like the hORNS Universum but not their fp15 though I see why some people would need them for very small rooms, and see them as better version of Audio Note AN-E type of speakers, but not for me. Difference between Cessaro models is big at every leap. I haven't heard the real big Acapellas, but again, the medium ones only do midrange, the 150k+ ones might be doing more. There are many DIY and VoTT horns I heard, all lacked something or the other. Many had something that was very attractive, which is what made them so frustrating.

The sound in Munich last year with the Avantgarde Duo Omega + Lampizator GG + AudioPax gear was outstanding...one of the three or four best sounds at the show. The Duos can sound really nice and often, IMO, better than the Trios because they are better focused and more natural sizing on images. Trios often give an image of a 6 foot long guitar and a 2 foot diameter head singing. I have heard Trios about a dozen or more times over the years and only once did they really blow me away. Difficult speaker to set up I guess. I have heard Duos three or four times and they were always sounding very good. The little solos were not so good but they were self-powered and not reall horn except the tweeter. The new fully active one is not bad but again the amps let it down I feel.

I haven't heard the No. 28 but I have the 32 several times (Christoph now has a pair as well) and the bigger 38 and both are excellent. What was your issue with the 28? Is it because the bass is not horn? I am actually interested in the Odeons from a couple of generations back like my La Bohemes, because I think they were more massively built (less attractive though) and perhaps used better drivers too. THat said, I think the 32 is an excellent "final" speaker for someone who doesn't want a monster sized speaker in the house and doesn't want to pay a ridiculous price. It is dynamic, transparent and images and soundstages very well. Integration is also superb. What's not to like?

I haven't heard the smaller Tune Audio speakers, but the smallest two-way is a lot like my Rigoletto from design. It works great as a casual speaker, has surprisingly good bass and projection.

 

[microstrip]

The sound in Munich last year with the Avantgarde Duo Omega + Lampizator GG + AudioPax gear was outstanding...one of the three or four best sounds at the show. (...)

Did you listen to them playing large scale orchestral music? Do they manage to have scale and power in symphonic music?

 

[bonzo75]

Did you listen to them playing large scale orchestral music? Do they manage to have scale and power in symphonic music?

No. I didn't like that room, and as you know, I like the Lampi, and I am sure Audiopax is good because Geoffrey of sound Galleries likes it, and I loved his Trios with his temp amps (Tom Evans) and Oppo when his Audiopax was out, and he rates them his favorites to run Trios, so they must be good.

I remember Audiophile Bill, who had liked my Big 7 at his and wanted to buy a Lampi, was so disappointed by that room that he shelved his plans to buy the Lampi. Then he heard my B7 again at his and went ahead and bought the Lampi. I blame the Duos, which I have heard many times in different settings, and well, if you hear a small horn you will hear so many compromises across the range, that the woofer of a Martin Logan seems like SOTA integration in comparison. I know many liked that room, and well, all I can say is them and I listen to different things and different music. Nothing against the Duos only, btw, but against all small horns. I would rather buy a small stat, or a cone. Which is why I liked the hORNS universums so much, it is the only small (yet a bit big) horn that I liked. Somehow, the smaller horns also do not do the midrange of their bigger brothers (though I think the Acapella might)

 

[morricab]

Did you listen to them playing large scale orchestral music? Do they manage to have scale and power in symphonic music?

Good question...I am trying to remember but specific pieces are not jumping out at me as it was pretty much uniformly excellent. I know the rooms "owner" and he likes classical very much so it is possible we did so. We were listening pretty loud as well but the distortion from the horns is very low and stresses the electronics rather little so it was very clean sounding and enjoyable.

Aries Cerat Symphonia did in 2014 and it was pretty awesome. That is also not a really large horn but it makes a really big sound. The horn bass is only an 8 inch Fostex sigma driver into a 3 meter long back loaded horn. The midrange horn is also relatively compact as is the ribbon tweeter horn. Bigger than Duo physically but that is only because of the horn bass of the Symphonia vs. powered subs of the Duo. THe mid and high horns are simliar in size. The Duo is more sensitive as well I believe.

One might imagine at some point that the powered sub starts to fall behind the horns but I would imagine that Avantgarde has set that bar pretty high...higher than most people could stand.

With orchestral music though, a good backloaded horn makes big power with orchestral bass instruments. I heard this with the Symphonia and to a slightly lesser degree with my La Bohemes (the horn is a bit shorter so the low frequency cutoff is a bit higher). Listen to this Youtube video of the Symphonia with pipe organ. Pretty awesome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPdOPt_bDSI

THere are some videos of the Avantgarde/Audiopax room from 2015 but not with big scale classical.

 

[Zero000]

Listen to this Youtube video of the Symphonia with pipe organ. Pretty awesome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPdOPt_bDSI

THere are some videos of the Avantgarde/Audiopax room from 2015 but not with big scale classical.

The bass coming out of that speaker reminds me a bit of the Living Voice Air Partner from some years back. A loose, bloated mess lacking in any true definition.

Not a compromise I could live with.

That's cruel, I know. But that kind of design just sucks IMHO.

It's also a YouTube video and asserting much from one is a dangerous thing. So I'll concede they may be better in the flesh.

 

[Exlibris]

I mistakenly thought the "death by marshmallow as the soundfield reaches out and hugs you" post was referring to the Bionor but I now see that it was the Denman. I haven't heard either.
I'm sorry if these links have already been posted in this thread but I enjoyed these articles on the Denman. "It’s really convincing, immersive 3D sound, from the 1930s.” That's what I'm looking for: immersive.

http://www.stuff.tv/features/historys-greatest-loudspeaker-back-in-business

http://hyponik.com/features/search-perfect-sound-aleks-kolkowski-denman-horn/

 

[spiritofmusic]

Exlibris, you have NO idea, ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA AT ALL!

The experience sitting in front of it was kind of cathartic, both made you forget about reproduction of sound, and then wonder just how less than one Watt, no crossover anomalies, kinda full range, mini point source as multichannel, could come together this way

Nothing in my audio journeying will get close. Not remotely

Death by marshmallow, most appropriate label

A true shame so few people heard it, even fewer of us aphiles

 

[Exlibris]

Well, if you do get close -- let us know!

 

[spiritofmusic]

Exlibris, I've just converted a space ideal for Denman at 38x18, but unfortunately I'm a tad short of the £65k needed the designer estimated a new reconstruction would have demanded
Just a pipe dream
Denman will remain the legend to aspire to, it's sheer "aliveness" a joy to behold
The only component I literally cried at when it was playing
And that was just as a "simple" rainstorm was playing out

Imagine the awareness of an adult audiophile with being 5 years old, and the unadulterated joy on offer
Well, I was 5 years old again for 2 hours on 5 occasions back in 2014

??
Etc etc etc ad infinitum

 

[morricab]

The bass coming out of that speaker reminds me a bit of the Living Voice Air Partner from some years back. A loose, bloated mess lacking in any true definition.

Not a compromise I could live with.

That's cruel, I know. But that kind of design just sucks IMHO.

It's also a YouTube video and asserting much from one is a dangerous thing. So I'll concede they may be better in the flesh.

Hmmm...not what virtually everyone else thinks but whatever...

 

[morricab]

No. I didn't like that room, and as you know, I like the Lampi, and I am sure Audiopax is good because Geoffrey of sound Galleries likes it, and I loved his Trios with his temp amps (Tom Evans) and Oppo when his Audiopax was out, and he rates them his favorites to run Trios, so they must be good.

I remember Audiophile Bill, who had liked my Big 7 at his and wanted to buy a Lampi, was so disappointed by that room that he shelved his plans to buy the Lampi. Then he heard my B7 again at his and went ahead and bought the Lampi. I blame the Duos, which I have heard many times in different settings, and well, if you hear a small horn you will hear so many compromises across the range, that the woofer of a Martin Logan seems like SOTA integration in comparison. I know many liked that room, and well, all I can say is them and I listen to different things and different music. Nothing against the Duos only, btw, but against all small horns. I would rather buy a small stat, or a cone. Which is why I liked the hORNS universums so much, it is the only small (yet a bit big) horn that I liked. Somehow, the smaller horns also do not do the midrange of their bigger brothers (though I think the Acapella might)

You didn't like the room exactly why? I can tell you that virtually every demo I have heard with Trios was a mess with frankly strange imaging and poor coherence between the drivers. Maybe Geoffrey can make them sing but he was pretty proud of the sound he was getting from that room with the Duo Omegas and I had to agree with him on that. I will be trying the AudioPax stuff for a review hopefully towards the end of the year so I will be able see how it compares to the Aries Cerat Diana.

 

[bonzo75]

You didn't like the room exactly why? I can tell you that virtually every demo I have heard with Trios was a mess with frankly strange imaging and poor coherence between the drivers. Maybe Geoffrey can make them sing but he was pretty proud of the sound he was getting from that room with the Duo Omegas and I had to agree with him on that. I will be trying the AudioPax stuff for a review hopefully towards the end of the year so I will be able see how it compares to the Aries Cerat Diana.

I know. I don't like those speakers in any set up. I have also heard them at the factory, the older version at the UK distro, and at Blue58. I don't like the midrange, it seems stretched, I don't like the bass, I don't like the integration, the soundstage, nothing. I find logans, quads, maggies, acoustats, all better, at much lower prices. A set up is not going to change that. I have no doubt that for those who like the Duos, the Lampi + Audiopax must have been a great combo. For me, it has to be Lampi + Audiopax + Trio. Given what I have seen with hORNS Universum, it seems the next in line in horn families lose a lot - horn is a tough integration. I don't even hear any similarities in their tone or bass or presentation. Same with Tune Audio and hORNS. Their smaller models could have been from totally different designers. I can easily see a guy who likes Summits live with Ethos. Or Sasha for Alexia. Analysis Omega for Amphi.

 

[morricab]

I know. I don't like those speakers in any set up. I have also heard them at the factory, the older version at the UK distro, and at Blue58. I don't like the midrange, it seems stretched, I don't like the bass, I don't like the integration, the soundstage, nothing. I find logans, quads, maggies, acoustats, all better, at much lower prices. A set up is not going to change that. I have no doubt that for those who like the Duos, the Lampi + Audiopax must have been a great combo. For me, it has to be Lampi + Audiopax + Trio. Given what I have seen with hORNS Universum, it seems the next in line in horn families lose a lot - horn is a tough integration. I don't even hear any similarities in their tone or bass or presentation. Same with Tune Audio and hORNS. Their smaller models could have been from totally different designers. I can easily see a guy who likes Summits live with Ethos. Or Sasha for Alexia. Analysis Omega for Amphi.

Well, as I said I was quite positively surprised by that Duo set up and honestly the Trio does not integrate well so I am not sure why you like it so much other than it sounds "big". I am most certainly not a fanboy for Avantgarde so don't get me wrong, IMO, they are not the best of the breed. We can both agree the Universum is excellent (see my top 5 rooms at Munich on Positive Feedback) the lower models are not true horns...just the tweeters. As I said, only Tune I heard was the big one.

You didn't comment on the Symphonia from Aries Cerat...haven't you heard it? That blew me away in 2014...only the might Living Voice Vox Olympian/Elyssian was better that year I thought (and maybe the antique WE room with Silbatone).