No sorry, haven't heard the Cerat. I am not a fan of LV, it's nice, and I can see that it can easily be customized to one's liking. I find it a bit smooth and buttery, but I don't think that should be a problem to fix. But no, I don't like it as much as the theater horns or the Apogees.
Speaker Oasis...Bionor
- Thread starter ALF
- Start date
Really?
Whenever I see a small driver trying to feed a huge gapping hole for bass duties it is time to worry. It doesn't work.
+1.
I haven't heard the newest Trios but the Duos were way better imo. Trios didn't integrate well and were shouty.
bonzo,
We did our room with Audiopax and Avantgarde right after the Munich show last year. The Audiopax folks, who attended both shows, were much more impressed by the MSB Analog DAC than the Lampizator used in Munich (don't know which model). We were left wondering what we could've had if we paired the MSB with Geoff's server, still in its formative stages back in 2015...
Avantgarde and Audiopax is a winning combination, and the new XD series are extraordinary. Hopefully morricab will be able to audition/review the Audiopax soon!
cheers,
alex
We did our room with Audiopax and Avantgarde right after the Munich show last year. The Audiopax folks, who attended both shows, were much more impressed by the MSB Analog DAC than the Lampizator used in Munich (don't know which model). We were left wondering what we could've had if we paired the MSB with Geoff's server, still in its formative stages back in 2015...
Avantgarde and Audiopax is a winning combination, and the new XD series are extraordinary. Hopefully morricab will be able to audition/review the Audiopax soon!
cheers,
alex
Yes at shows it's possible, especially when they are in a different room one year apart When you are like Al Rainbow and own both the big 7 and the 40k or so MSB stack with the diamond, it is easy to see why the Lampi is preferred
Anyway, like i said, I didn't like the room, and I never liked Lampi at shows.
It was the same year, a month apart...
Since you keep mentioning Al, I figured I'd mention that I've replaced not one, but two Lampizators, in the San Diego area alone. And a third is on the way to be replaced as well. So yeah, there's always going to be Al...
Since you keep mentioning Al, I figured I'd mention that I've replaced not one, but two Lampizators, in the San Diego area alone. And a third is on the way to be replaced as well. So yeah, there's always going to be Al...
You should mention the models. Always good to have a dealer butting in on a Bionor thread, which deviated to other horns, about his MSB customers whose ears we can't calibrate. Cheers
Ah, so your issues are with the visuals and what you THINK it should sound like. You do understand the concept of an exponential horn right? It is not a vented box...very different. The size of the mouth has nothing to do with the driver size but the length of the horn and the kind of exponential taper. It is no issue for an 8 inch driver to be driving a 3 meter long horn...it should have a mouth like this. Of course if the horn dimensions are done poorly it will have issues but I can almost guarantee you that regardless of the volume level that driver is barely moving, which means it is being loaded correctly. I see this with my own horns...if there is a excursion of more than 1 mm I would be surprised even with bass heavy music like Yello or Bjork.
The problem with the Living Voice Air partner and Air Scout is that the horn is too short to make any real bass. They are dead by about 60-70Hz. I know this for a fact because a friend of mine has the Air Scouts and they make no deep bass...most mini monitors have deeper bass. They must really be close to a back wall and must have a couple of really good subs to fill out the bottom. This is why the Living Voice successor to the Air Partner is teamed up with huge subs.
If you listen carefully to the Aries Cerat you will hear a level of texture and modulation in the bass that most box speakers gloss over. Big planars can probably do it better still in terms of texture and detail in the bass but not with big SS amps and not with the same punch as a good horn.
What you are hearing is the Kondo gear, which is buttery smooth in most set ups I have heard. IMO, it is less colored than any of the vintage horns and on par with Apogees and other ribbons but with WAY more dynamics for live music. I am surprised that you are not more impressed as this is a speaker system that handles "big" music with utter ease.
Bass horns, always bass horns. I have never heard a Trio without them. The drivers don't integrate well with each other. The images are overblown and you hear the tweeter and mid working independently from the lower end. You understand what driver integration means, right?
Probably late in the year along with Geoffrey's music server. Looking forward to it!
I didn't say I wasn't impressed. Just that 30k impressed, not 400k impressed. Though I assume a lot of money is for the cabinet finish, and for the flexibility to use it on a yacht, without power, plus the customization. I accept that probably a lot of what I heard has to do with the Kondo gear, but tough to make out in a show otherwise.
To your previous post, I have yet to listen to a horn that comes remotely close to in bass and bass punch to an apogee. In fact if I had to listen only to violins and vocals, I might take the WE 16A with GIP drivers and a light watt 300b amp. Except for weight concerns of putting 200kg on the wall in an apartment, it requires no big real estate. The universum as final horns without the need for a large space are also very good, more manageable, though for me personally downward firing woofers in an apt block can be a concern depending on how sound permeates through to below neighbor. But if I want vocals, violins, and the large dynamics and the ideal stage, for me it is a sure thing with Apogees.
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Grands Bass punch comes from the mass subs underneath the panels. The bass panel is no bigger than a Divas. Go back and read reviews over the decades on Apogees, punch and slam is one of the things that people criticized the most about planar bass. For sure, none of the Apogees I have heard, including Diva and Full Range, have the bass punch that my Spectra 4400s had, which was gobsmackingly good. Until I heard the Spectra 4400s, I didn't think any planars could do slam but those could and did. Of course the panel surface area was larger I think than a Diva or Full-Range bass panel.
I am not talking about the grands bass punch, also FR, and I am sure diva would do it. I also find duettas more integrated. I will listen to full symphony on nothing else for the slam. Horns do a lot for me on the instruments in a symphony and the musicality (decay etc), but definitely not on slam. As for punch and slam, Graz's bass panels are supposed to be much better. At Lissnr's I did see a positive effect of the valve amp (tube research labs) on the bass panel as compared to his SS Samsons, but that was one compare. I will wait to hear more examples
b75
We are all entitled to our opinions. An opinion has no need for proof. It needs however some resemblance of communal experience IMO ... If someone were to tell me that Alaska is warm most of the year in his/her opinion, I would find the opinion difficult to accept and contrary to most people experiences. Same when you post that horns lack slam as compared to Apogee (Perhaps I read you wrong in which case I apologize). I am a Planar fan, have owned planar for the most part (Quad, ML, Magnepan, Apogee) and was the owner on Apogee Diva. I have heard the Grand but unfortunately not the FR.
As moricab pointed to you the Grand slam is good ol' cones punch .. Panel in my experience rarely provide that "punch". Cones do, Very big horns do, panels are simply not good at these things in my experience. When it comes to having grand scale panels can do it but I have come to see that horns do it better... I know it is a matter of semantics but for what I understand when using the terms "punch" and "slam"... Panels do not seem to be the best at those , any of the panels, I have experienced. Horns OTOH do these well, day in and day out. I do find that many horn speaker systems need serious real estate, read large rooms for their drivers to integrate. Some horns cannot integrate well in any room thus a fuzzy sound with no precise imaging. Some particular version of the Avant Guarde Trio for example . In one of the the drivers are in a large circle , I do find those drivers placement not conclusive to good integration however large the room might have been. It seems to have been a nod to aesthetics rather than to Sound reproduction.
As for the matter of bass integration , horns can work with cones with no problem... You need to the subs to keep up with the horn system in term of power compression and of course of sheer output but it is doable.
We are all entitled to our opinions. An opinion has no need for proof. It needs however some resemblance of communal experience IMO
... If someone were to tell me that Alaska is warm most of the year in his/her opinion, I would find the opinion difficult to accept and contrary to most people experiences. Same when you post that horns lack slam as compared to Apogee (Perhaps I read you wrong in which case I apologize). I am a Planar fan, have owned planar for the most part (Quad, ML, Magnepan, Apogee) and was the owner on Apogee Diva. I have heard the Grand but unfortunately not the FR. As moricab pointed to you the Grand slam is good ol' cones punch .. Panel in my experience rarely provide that "punch". Cones do, Very big horns do, panels are simply not good at these things in my experience. When it comes to having grand scale panels can do it but I have come to see that horns do it better... I know it is a matter of semantics but for what I understand when using the terms "punch" and "slam"... Panels do not seem to be the best at those , any of the panels, I have experienced. Horns OTOH do these well, day in and day out. I do find that many horn speaker systems need serious real estate, read large rooms for their drivers to integrate. Some horns cannot integrate well in any room thus a fuzzy sound with no precise imaging. Some particular version of the Avant Guarde Trio for example . In one of the the drivers are in a large circle , I do find those drivers placement not conclusive to good integration however large the room might have been. It seems to have been a nod to aesthetics rather than to Sound reproduction.
As for the matter of bass integration , horns can work with cones with no problem... You need to the subs to keep up with the horn system in term of power compression and of course of sheer output but it is doable.
b75
We are all entitled to our opinions. An opinion has no need for proof. It needs however some resemblance of communal experience IMO
As moricab pointed to you the Grand slam is good ol' cones punch .. Panel in my experience rarely provide that "punch". Cones do, Very big horns do, panels are simply not good at these things in my experience. When it comes to having grand scale panels can do it but I have come to see that horns do it better... I know it is a matter of semantics but for what I understand when using the terms "punch" and "slam"... Panels do not seem to be the best at those , any of the panels, I have experienced. Horns OTOH do these well, day in and day out. I do find that many horn speaker systems need serious real estate, read large rooms for their drivers to integrate. Some horns cannot integrate well in any room thus a fuzzy sound with no precise imaging. Some particular version of the Avant Guarde Trio for example . In one of the the drivers are in a large circle , I do find those drivers placement not conclusive to good integration however large the room might have been. It seems to have been a nod to aesthetics rather than to Sound reproduction.
As for the matter of bass integration , horns can work with cones with no problem... You need to the subs to keep up with the horn system in term of power compression and of course of sheer output but it is doable.
There is no cones punch in Grand slam. The cones come in at 40Hz. The bass panel gives the punch on classical, more midbass. I agree non-apogee panels don't seem to be the best at those. .. A lot of punch comes from midbass. Never seen horns integrated remotely with subs. Something like big allnico drivers, yes. As for real estate, both big horns and big panels need that.
b75
hope this late discussion is not OT ... Bass integration is a touchy subjects and often it is not a matter of driver technology but of understanding of what a crossover does. Bass integration is never plug and play. irrespective of subwoofers and mains excellence . Even integrated 4 -columns hybrid designs are very difficult to set-up. It takes a while, takes time and require an understanding of the room and speakers interactions. I would expect subs and horn not to work very well in show situations. One of the best tool in bass integratio is DSP, unfortunately reviled by many.
OT: Two of the best tools in bass are shunned by some and it is unfortunate: DSP and Class D amplifers..
Back to the current discussion...
From what I googled and remembered on the Apogee Grand the crossover to the cone woofer was 70 Hz not 40 Hz.. Depending on the slope (and shape) of the crossover you could well find the cones playing "up there" and the panels playing down low too ...
hope this late discussion is not OT ... Bass integration is a touchy subjects and often it is not a matter of driver technology but of understanding of what a crossover does. Bass integration is never plug and play. irrespective of subwoofers and mains excellence . Even integrated 4 -columns hybrid designs are very difficult to set-up. It takes a while, takes time and require an understanding of the room and speakers interactions. I would expect subs and horn not to work very well in show situations. One of the best tool in bass integratio is DSP, unfortunately reviled by many.
OT: Two of the best tools in bass are shunned by some and it is unfortunate: DSP and Class D amplifers..
Back to the current discussion...
From what I googled and remembered on the Apogee Grand the crossover to the cone woofer was 70 Hz not 40 Hz.. Depending on the slope (and shape) of the crossover you could well find the cones playing "up there" and the panels playing down low too
...
Only in Munich, where they didn't impress, but that does not mean anything as such beasts are take time to set up, so they should be heard in Stereo's system, if he did get round to getting them.
