Speaker Oasis...Bionor
- Thread starter ALF
- Start date
Fear not - there a few around who do understand precisely what you're chasing, like David,I just have to say that I love this line: "It's like death by marshmallow as the soundfield reaches out and hugs you." I've been trying for this sort of soundfield for most of my years in this hobby. When I talk to most audiophiles about this they don't even get what I'm after. Perhaps I'll try the "marshmallow" analogy rather than saying things like "having the speakers load/pressurize the room"; "having the sound come at you from the musicians rather than sit behind the speaker plane"; "having the music fill the room."
I bought my current speakers, in part, because they sometimes filled the small room that I had auditioned them in. I've owned them for a few years now and while I'm still generally pleased with them in other respects, I realize that they only fill the room/create the soundfield I want on certain frequencies.
I'm limited by space (I live in a condo) and, to a lesser extent, by budget so speakers like the Bionors are simply not an option.
. I achieved this 30 years ago, and have spent the decades in between, on and off, exploring this, and learning what needs to be optimised in a system to get there.The limitations are not the space, nor the type of speakers used - it's the overall quality of the sound delivered by the speaker drivers that matters; and remarkably, even cheap and nasty systems can deliver exactly this sort of listening experience if the right areas are properly tweaked and optimised. What is the big problem, is that a great deal of effort and attention to detail is usually necessary to get there - a 'raw' system is highly unlikely to be good enough, and will need much finessing for the necessary quality to be reached.
Some of the Silbatone/Munich show demos have been Awe-Inspiring and some not so. This years was not one of their best. Last years though...my wife cried, literally, when they played a Russian opera singer...it was some of the most emotional sound I had heard. It was some early thirties coax drivered WE speaker...apparently their model for "little" theaters!
I'm wondering if horns with very large mouths or large dispersion patterns (for theatres) is required for this sort of experience(?)
The horns that I have demoed (AG Trios, many Acapellas, JBL Everest, Tannoy Kensington, Shindo Latour, and a GOTO system) have never affected me emotionally and they certainly didn't create an immersive soundfield -- quite the opposite in fact.
The horns that I have demoed (AG Trios, many Acapellas, JBL Everest, Tannoy Kensington, Shindo Latour, and a GOTO system) have never affected me emotionally and they certainly didn't create an immersive soundfield -- quite the opposite in fact.
Yeah 2014 was the best, and 2015, at Munich. 2014 was 12a and 13a, but he was using one on each channel, one for higher frequencies and one for lower. So he effectively took 4 monos and turned them into a two per channel stereo. Their turntable is either the Schick idler (2014 and 2015) or a restored Garrard (2016). While the phono costs over 50k, I think, cables cost $5 per meter, a bit like what I have seen at DDk's and the apogee rooms I have liked, giving some perspective on what influences SQ.
He spends a 100k flying the gear over just to educate people, so it always disturbs me to see some people just ignore it and walk past to the Magico Ultimates type rooms.
This year was disappointing though.
He spends a 100k flying the gear over just to educate people, so it always disturbs me to see some people just ignore it and walk past to the Magico Ultimates type rooms.
This year was disappointing though.
Of the horns you have mentioned, the only one I have liked is the AG Trios with the bass horns (must). I forget which Tannoy models I have heard, but I haven't heard the old Autographs. Also not heard the Latour, but not a fan of Shindo electronics, as I don't like that slow sweet colored sound. For some people it is the best thing though. Some of those are boxed though, and would not sound the same.
When I heard the Trios the system did not include the bass horns -- I can imagine why those would make a huge difference in the presentation.
I'm also not a fan of the slow sweet colored sound (warm and fuzzy) of the Shindo electronics. Having said that, my system is on the warm/round/beautiful side in comparison to most hi-fi systems that I hear at shows. I can't tolerate anything that is the least bit aggravating or harsh - especially in the upper-mids/lower treble and this is another reason that I couldn't live with any of the horns that I have heard so far.
I'm also not a fan of the slow sweet colored sound (warm and fuzzy) of the Shindo electronics. Having said that, my system is on the warm/round/beautiful side in comparison to most hi-fi systems that I hear at shows. I can't tolerate anything that is the least bit aggravating or harsh - especially in the upper-mids/lower treble and this is another reason that I couldn't live with any of the horns that I have heard so far.
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..hey Steve could you contrast the sound of these horns with Jimmy's VR111s?
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
David's mid range is second to none but at the top and bottom ends Jim's system was much more extended and the bass was better than any other system I have heard . Don't get me wrong, two world class systems presented in different approaches
Where Jim has everyone beat is in the room. I just haven't heard a better room anywhere than Jim's. His acoustician hit a home run there as yes I am transported to the symphony orchestra in as much a realistic system that I have ever heard
Where Jim has everyone beat is in the room. I just haven't heard a better room anywhere than Jim's. His acoustician hit a home run there as yes I am transported to the symphony orchestra in as much a realistic system that I have ever heard
Guys, the 16a was designed WAY before stereo. It supports two drivers for output reasons and not for stereo. If you feed a stereo signal to it you will get cancellation of some frequencies. It is designed only to have both drivers with the same mono signal.
Yeah it was still quite good with some music but not like years before. I still think the Living Voice is it for modern speakers. This year was not quite as good but close enough to the year before that had our jaws dropping.
I have heard at length the Line Magnetic WE replicas with LM and AcousticPlan amps and that is one of the best 40k speakers I have heard. The LM219 is a steal!
I heard the line magnetic but the GIP were much better. Heard that WE originals are possibly even better, but couldn't compare. The GIP with the 16a had real magic. The acoustiplan system with LM was well crossed over to woofers and showed that they can work in a small room
You should hear a horn system with solid wood horns. My Odeons are not harsh at all, nor are the horns from Aries Cerat, Living Voice, Horns by AutoTech or TuneAudio.
I'm going to mention THE contender
But it existed for 3 months in 2014 and like a firefly flown to it's death, disassembled never to be heard again
The Denman Exponential Horn
Ancient WE driver, field coil driven, 0.5W
Horn flares to 25' in length, exponentially to a horn mouth of 7'x5'
Installed in a TERRIBLE exhibition space at the London Science Museum, as poor an acoustic space as you could imagine
No crossover, "full range" 30Hz-7kHz, but with spikes measured at 12kHz
So a single point mono transducers, with no other tricks, bells or whistles
I plonked myself down in the sweetspot, and then spent the next 2 hours fixed to my seat unable to move, transfixed by the biggest soundstage, pinpoint imaging beyond anything else, and a kind of cognitive ease I've only heard at the most perfect live classical concerts
A single mono point source was so enveloping that you could swear you were listening to an IMAX multi speaker surround sound setup, but with absolutely no artifacts of any kind
Speech/spoken word just made you sit up, rainstorms was totally immersive, machine gunfire made you count and point out each bullet, and the music played just was seamless and enveloping in a way I'll never hear from any domestic system, or at a venue, again
I have never had to be dragged away from a demo experience before, but my GF had to force me to leave
One step closer to God (and I'm a non believer LOL)
But it existed for 3 months in 2014 and like a firefly flown to it's death, disassembled never to be heard again
The Denman Exponential Horn
Ancient WE driver, field coil driven, 0.5W
Horn flares to 25' in length, exponentially to a horn mouth of 7'x5'
Installed in a TERRIBLE exhibition space at the London Science Museum, as poor an acoustic space as you could imagine
No crossover, "full range" 30Hz-7kHz, but with spikes measured at 12kHz
So a single point mono transducers, with no other tricks, bells or whistles
I plonked myself down in the sweetspot, and then spent the next 2 hours fixed to my seat unable to move, transfixed by the biggest soundstage, pinpoint imaging beyond anything else, and a kind of cognitive ease I've only heard at the most perfect live classical concerts
A single mono point source was so enveloping that you could swear you were listening to an IMAX multi speaker surround sound setup, but with absolutely no artifacts of any kind
Speech/spoken word just made you sit up, rainstorms was totally immersive, machine gunfire made you count and point out each bullet, and the music played just was seamless and enveloping in a way I'll never hear from any domestic system, or at a venue, again
I have never had to be dragged away from a demo experience before, but my GF had to force me to leave
One step closer to God (and I'm a non believer LOL)
At his place, it's a travel from Zurich airport. He had the 16a and another WE, I think 22, both crossed to the same woofers.
And yet you want to go to Divas?? As good as they are, and I know, they will not deliver what you heard. There are more domestically friendly horns that will get closer to that experience you had...and Zu won't deliver it. The Grands also won't deliver that emotional connection you heard...
Ok, that was the same setup for me. He also had the horn tweeters (can't remember the model). The woofer bins were Jensens and not WE.
