Speed Kills

mep

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Apr 20, 2010
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There is a term used to describe when a group of musicians are all playing in time with each other (several really), and that would be “on the beat.” Sometimes one or more musicians drifts off the correct time and starts playing too fast or too slow (ahead of the beat or behind the beat) which mucks up the music. Sometimes you will hear someone remark about a group they just saw perform live and they will say something to the effect of, “man, they were really tight.” This usually also means that the band was on the beat and locked on to the correct time signature.

I believe there is a similar phenomena that occurs when we mix and match stereo components such as preamps and power amps. I don’t think that all components “lock” onto each other and it can have the same insidious effects as losing the beat in live music. I think there can be several reasons why this is so with the primary reason being impedance matching between the components. I think this sometimes gets referred to as “synergy” which some people claim doesn’t exist, but they shouldn’t. If the impedance match between your preamp and power amp is way off, I promise you that you won’t have any synergy.

I think when all is right in the world and your stereo system, there is time signature hand-off between components that either gets locked onto or doesn’t. If it doesn’t, your music will never sound as clean, as pure, as right, as on the beat as it will when both pieces are playing in perfect time with each other. When your system is locked onto the beat, it becomes a driving force that propels music at the correct speed of the time signature. With some acoustic jazz, I find that speed to be almost dizzying because it is so fast. This type of speed also helps suspend disbelief that you are hearing recorded music versus live music (as much as this is ever possible). This speed is powerful.

I think it goes without saying that your chances of having synergy between a preamp and power amp is much greater when sticking with the same manufacturer and with pieces that were designed to work with each other. Mixing gear from different manufacturers is pretty much a crapshoot. I’m not convinced that just because the specifications from each piece say they are electrically compatible will ensure success on the timing front. Of course, I have never taken my own advice and have always had mixed components in my setup. This will change some 6-8 weeks from now when the Krell KBL and KSA-250 are repaired and find their way back to me.

I can tell you that the combination I had with the Krell KBL preamp driving my pair of Phase Linear 400 Series 2 amps was special until the KBL gave up the power supply ghost. There is an elegance, refinement, and purity that the KBL brought to the table along with a magical lock on the time signature that created a blinding speed to the music when called for. Should I mention that I’m also using MIT ICs with the magic impedance matching boxes? And to think that the KSA-250 should bring a whole other level of sound quality to the table is almost cause for giddiness.

In summary, speed kills (your sound) if you don’t have the right speed locked on. And it may not as easy as we think to achieve this and something we should just take for granted. Yes Virginia, there is such a thing as synergy.
 
I can't really relate the effect you're talking about to musicians playing in time, I've played in sloppy bands and tight bands and that gap is just too big for me to leap, but I know the effect. I'd just call it precision. Or really good transient response. Or maybe it's more than that; it also seems to create more separation between the instruments and tighten up imaging. Get the last bit of disconnect and imprecision out of the way - passive crossovers - and you'll hear a bit more of it. Not much, but a bit. You'll might also lose some distortion you don't now realize you have, that no amp or preamp or DAC, at any price, can get rid of. But that's good advice, Mark. Buy amps, preamps, DACs that are made to work together, or that simply play well with others. Instant synergy.

Tim
 
Precision is a good word Tim. You also nailed it with “more separation between the instruments" and "tighten up imaging.” You are also onto something when you talk about getting rid of distortion that you don’t realize you have. MikeL touched on this recently too. Maybe there are a zillion more forms of distortion that happen in music reproduction than the most common few that are used as measurements today. And I think many of those forms of distortion can be extremely subtle and that is why you don’t notice them until they are gone.

As for loudspeakers, they are all a big compromise and the least perfect of anything in our playback chain. Therefore, passive crossovers is way down on my list of things to attack. The vast majority of all speakers used in high-end audio systems use passive crossovers.
 
Hi Mark,

Very good post and I can relate to your whole experience with different equipment. I would make the point that you can have "synergy" with both SS and tube and even mixing the two together. Twenty years ago I had two equipment manufacturers over for a listen and they both commented that there must be a synergy between my preamp and amplifier. I have kept the same preamp for 30 plus years. Whether you use the word "tight" to describe the band or that the music just sounds right. There is a quality to the reproduction that produces the qualities that live music does,it just moves you.

A engineer friend of mine always talks about high resolution time domain circuit modeling and it's effect on the level of accuracy and integrity of the signal. He is a lot smarter than I am but his amplifiers do have a correctness about them. I have found that when a piece of equipment has that correctness about it,I stick with it. After many many years in this hobby I really don't have the gumption to go out and acquire a new system,but that is only because I'm satisfied with my equipment.

I think your on the right track and even though I love the sound of tubes,my present SS preamp and amplifier have a crispness in sound that I just can't get away from.
 
An excellent example of speed is The Pointer Sisters. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v894vHM5L4M They go from fast to slow, to a run with a phenominal ease. Each word is articulate. The music is never blurred.
 
The vast majority of all speakers used in high-end audio systems use passive crossovers.

They do, and the best of them do a very good job. I'll never go back, but I don't believe active is the only way to get to good sound, either. I do, however, believe that there is one more notch of that speed, clarity and precision there in eliminating that nest of resistance between the amplifiers and their control over the drivers. Why don't more high-end speaker manufacturers make active systems? There's no market for them. Not enough people believe, as you've come to, that the best "synergy" is in components that were designed and built to work together. And frankly, they just don't want to give up the fun of buying, selling and "upgrading." So active has never caught on. But we're not just talking about eliminating the crossover in an active system. We're talking about matching, in exactly the way your new preamp is matched to your new amp, each amplifier to each driver in the speaker system. Steroidal synergy, bro. And uber-efficiency. The kind of heavy iron that's in your Krell becomes serious overkill.

Regarding those distortions, you may be right. There may be whole categories of distortion that we haven't even identified yet. Or it could be that the ones we already know about can have very subtle effects, even at very low levels, that are accumulative (Frank should be along any moment now), and eat away at the clarity, the precision, even when nothing is obviously "distorted." Maybe our audiophile grandchildren will figure it all out.

Tim
 
Regarding those distortions, you may be right. There may be whole categories of distortion that we haven't even identified yet. Or it could be that the ones we already know about can have very subtle effects, even at very low levels, that are accumulative (Frank should be along any moment now), and eat away at the clarity, the precision, even when nothing is obviously "distorted." Maybe our audiophile grandchildren will figure it all out.

Tim

Now you have done it,Frank will be here guaranteed, but all kidding aside I think some of us have made some strides in tackling the "unknown".
 
Hi

I hope I don't, again. detract from the main them of the thread; What I do find interesting is how good SS gears are and have been for more than 20 years .... The KBL and KSA-250 are 20 years old SS gears. The thing is: since then they have been superior to many tubes gears which we held to be superior without proper audition. And they were so in most areas that matters (to me at least) . Kudos to mep to be able, in the pursuit of excellence in reproduction , to shake his prejudices and look (well hear) things in a whole new light...
Now about the main theme.. I must say I favor the presentation of SS these days especially when it comes to this "speed' thing. It seems to me that the best SS have a way to simply disappear and just leave the music playing... They don't add much to the reproduction, some will find this type of reproduction lacking so used they are to the artifacts of their gears.. i do find this more honest and truer to the music.. I have recently heard some gears that would qualify as getting the "speed" right actually I would prefer to call this "coherence"; I don't think it is a matter of the same brand of preamp .. rather of taking care that the matching is tonally and electrically balanced... I wouldn't know how to measure this "tonal balance" thing .. I believe however that gears have a "flavor" .. A Krell doesn't sound like a Mark Levinson to my ears ....
 
I don't think it is a matter of the same brand of preamp .. rather of taking care that the matching is tonally and electrically balanced... I wouldn't know how to measure this "tonal balance" thing .. I believe however that gears have a "flavor" .. A Krell doesn't sound like a Mark Levinson to my ears ....

I think you're right, Frantz. As long as the are compatible, matching brands are not necessary, but it sure does make it easier. And as long as they are well-designed for accuracy, I think you can forget the tonal thing. If it has a tone, something is wrong.

Tim
 
I have some experience with the KBL and the KSA150 / KSA250. They sounded very good, but the best sound I got from them was listening with a LS2 Audio Research preamplifier. If you ask any dealer he will tell you that in the 90s they sold much more amplifiers than preamplifiers. Also if you look at Audiogon bluebook records you will see that the typical prices of the preamplfiier are around 25% of new cost and the amplifiers sell for more than 40% of new price.

IMHO, you will never know how good a KSA250 can sound unless you hook it with a better preamplifer. The Audio Research SP15 (balanced, all solid state line stage - only the phono section has 3 tubes) was also a great match.

BTW, do not think I do not like the KBL - but I still consider the KSA250 is another league.
 
I think you're right, Frantz. As long as the are compatible, matching brands are not necessary, but it sure does make it easier. (...)

Tim

Tim,
Although I do not know exactly what you mean by "compatible" , I guess we do not agree on this one. :eek: What type of compatibility are you addressing?
 
Hi

I hope I don't, again. detract from the main them of the thread; What I do find interesting is how good SS gears are and have been for more than 20 years .... The KBL and KSA-250 are 20 years old SS gears. The thing is: since then they have been superior to many tubes gears which we held to be superior without proper audition. And they were so in most areas that matters (to me at least) . Kudos to mep to be able, in the pursuit of excellence in reproduction , to shake his prejudices and look (well hear) things in a whole new light...
Now about the main theme.. I must say I favor the presentation of SS these days especially when it comes to this "speed' thing. It seems to me that the best SS have a way to simply disappear and just leave the music playing... They don't add much to the reproduction, some will find this type of reproduction lacking so used they are to the artifacts of their gears.. i do find this more honest and truer to the music.. I have recently heard some gears that would qualify as getting the "speed" right actually I would prefer to call this "coherence"; I don't think it is a matter of the same brand of preamp .. rather of taking care that the matching is tonally and electrically balanced... I wouldn't know how to measure this "tonal balance" thing .. I believe however that gears have a "flavor" .. A Krell doesn't sound like a Mark Levinson to my ears ....

Frantz:

I think you need to find a place that has the current ARC and cj tube gear in a proper setup.
 
Precision is a good word Tim. You also nailed it with “more separation between the instruments" and "tighten up imaging.” You are also onto something when you talk about getting rid of distortion that you don’t realize you have. MikeL touched on this recently too. Maybe there are a zillion more forms of distortion that happen in music reproduction than the most common few that are used as measurements today. And I think many of those forms of distortion can be extremely subtle and that is why you don’t notice them until they are gone.

As for loudspeakers, they are all a big compromise and the least perfect of anything in our playback chain. Therefore, passive crossovers is way down on my list of things to attack. The vast majority of all speakers used in high-end audio systems use passive crossovers.
Thank you for the invite, gentlemen, happy to join in ...

I can only echo what has been touched on here, the English audiophiles talk of PRaT of course, another direction to come from heading in the direction of getting better sound. A key thing is that often it is only an accidental thing that one does that all of sudden delivers better sound, and you think, "What the hell's going on here!!". Then you realise, "My God! So that's how good reproduced sound can be, I've got a whole new target to aim at now!".

There's no point in distinguishing SS from tubes, in terms of hearing really good sound from other people's systems I would have to say that tubes did it for me more often than SS.

Yes, Virginia, distortion, getting rid of it, is key, and talking of the importance of synergy or the speed of a performance is really just another take on the business of tuning a system to sort that out ...

Frank
 
I have some experience with the KBL and the KSA150 / KSA250. They sounded very good, but the best sound I got from them was listening with a LS2 Audio Research preamplifier. If you ask any dealer he will tell you that in the 90s they sold much more amplifiers than preamplifiers. Also if you look at Audiogon bluebook records you will see that the typical prices of the preamplfiier are around 25% of new cost and the amplifiers sell for more than 40% of new price.

IMHO, you will never know how good a KSA250 can sound unless you hook it with a better preamplifer. The Audio Research SP15 (balanced, all solid state line stage - only the phono section has 3 tubes) was also a great match.

BTW, do not think I do not like the KBL - but I still consider the KSA250 is another league.

I'm a little surprised that a *cheap* ARC LS2 with a single 6922 would sound better than the KBL preamp that cost twice as much when new. There is one on Audiogon right now for $1K.
 
I'm a little surprised that a *cheap* ARC LS2 with a single 6922 would sound better than the KBL preamp that cost twice as much when new. There is one on Audiogon right now for $1K.

The *cheap* ARC LS2 had a sophisticated regulated power supply, FET buffers and inverters ... You can see the diagrams at:

http://www.arcdb.ws/LS2/LS2.html

As always, we are referring to preferences and I have an high expectation bias, I still have my LS2 hidden in my hifi vault :eek: .
 
If that's the case consider driving it directly from the source, say a CD player or music server with good digital volume control -- would be an interesting exercise ...

Frank

It was tried - unhappily the Krell amplifiers sounded lousy without preamplifer. Please do not ask me why ...
 
It was tried - unhappily the Krell amplifiers sounded lousy without preamplifer. Please do not ask me why ...
But I would ask in what way they sounded lousy: did they become overbearing, very intense, unmusical, for example? Or very flat, totally lacking in "speed"? These are ways of describing different types of subtle distortion ...

Frank
 

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