Speed Kills

[Phelonious Ponk]

The improvement is incremental in overall sound reproduction. This distortion type will always take the path of least resistance and that path is back to "ground".

Perhaps I'm not being clear today. I wasn't asking for a report on the improvement. I was asking for an explanaton of the cause. While I understand the concept of grounding, and completely agree that it can and does eliminate noise from circuits, I do not grasp how it can make incremental improvements in the distortion in a system. To my knowledge, there is no way for a grounding methodology to eliminate any noise/distortion that was not a function of a compromised grounding methodology. It cannot, as I understand it, either remove distortion from electronic components (that was not put there by faulty grounding in the first place), nor can it be "incremental." But I would like to learn how this works.

Tim

 

[RogerD]

Perhaps I'm not being clear today. I wasn't asking for a report on the improvement. I was asking for an explanaton of the cause. While I understand the concept of grounding, and completely agree that it can and does eliminate noise from circuits, I do not grasp how it can make incremental improvements in the distortion in a system. To my knowledge, there is no way for a grounding methodology to eliminate any noise/distortion that was not a function of a compromised grounding methodology. It cannot, as I understand it, either remove distortion from electronic components (that was not put there by faulty grounding in the first place), nor can it be "incremental." But I would like to learn how this works.
Tim

see my suggestion about creating a partial pathway between the preamp chassis and ground.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

1. This a ridiculous oversimplification and probably erroneous conclusion. Imaging is perhaps better associated with things like cross-talk and phase response...
2. Digital can not image worth a nickel, whether we're talking about dimensionality/body of an instrument, placement or soundstage depth. I've done comparison of tape vs a high-rez digital copy and the digital copy always loses the spatiality and imaging of the tape, not to mention slaughters the upper octaves. It is far from a mirror image recreation of the original source.
3. Spatial recreation is not imaging. Imaging is the placement of instruments within the "soundstage."
4. Noise has little to do with imaging. Spatial recreation is mostly the ability to correctly recreate the low frequencies as well as the low level resolution of information.This low level information just gives the brain a greater ability to put together a cohearent (!) picture of the instrument in the mind's eye. Headphones or near field listening can't do that.
5. You really do need to hear a system that can properly image. We're talking about soundstage width, height and depth, layering and pinpoint placement of instruments, the ability to define the edge of an instrument, the ability to separate and recreated the transparency between instruments both laterally and depthwise, etc.
6. The equipment's power supply (and all that entails) has a large bearing on soundstaging stability and imaging.
Good power supplies tend to be more expensive to build and that in part separates the "best" of class from the more "affordable" components.
7. Oh and most digital recordings have their ambience artificially added.

From my post you were responding to above:

When I spoke of rumble and surface noise (which no turntable at no price can completely eliminate) I was talking about "sound stage," not imaging. Different things.

It seems we've found something to agree upon at last, Myles. Imaging has nothing to do with noise. Well, other than the fact that it is better without it. As for the rest of it, well, we'll have to continue to disagree.

Tim

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

see my suggestion about creating a partial pathway between the preamp chassis and ground.

Yeah, I saw that. Not sure how a low-level hum (bad grounding) in the preamp would impact your sound stage, but hey, sound stage seems to be more vulnerable than a love-struck teen-aged girl in tweaked systems, so we'll go with that: Was your preamp not properly grounded in the first place?

Tim

 

[RogerD]

Yeah, I saw that. Not sure how a low-level hum (bad grounding) in the preamp would impact your sound stage, but hey, sound stage seems to be more vulnerable than a love-struck teen-aged girl in tweaked systems, so we'll go with that: Was your preamp not properly grounded in the first place?

Tim

I can see where were headed here. I suggested a little experiment that requires 10 minutes and a 10 dollar investment, you never know it could make a difference.

 

[fas42]

Perhaps I'm not being clear today. I wasn't asking for a report on the improvement. I was asking for an explanaton of the cause.

Tim, a thought ...

What we're dealing with is a bit of the unknown, as in that a clear, totally comprehensive explanation of the cause and effect elements aren't there to be had. There are no nicely tailored descriptions with equations and pretty pictures stuck in various technical journals which make perfect sense to people with a technical or logical bent.

Which is not to say the behaviours aren't there. So if there is no-one out there who really, really understands what's going on what is one to do? Well, there are at least a few options ...

First of all, acknowledge that something IS going on and try to to understand it technically. That is a deeply uphill battle, need lots of time, brainpower, high powered measuring thingamajigs, and money to try and work it all out. Don't think too many people are on this kick ...

Secondly, say something IS going on and play around with it to the best of one's ability in one's spare time, trying this and that to get more postive outcomes, gain some understanding, come up with weird theories at times, and wacky physical solutions to make things better. This is your fairy dust territory, and is where I, Roger, Mike to some degree and others are moving around in.

Thirdly, declare that if one can't understand it then it doesn't exist, it must be all the other people's brains warping that cause them to think that something is happening. So to make sure that "An Inconvenient Truth" doesn't intrude into their consciousness, create an environment where these odd behaviours are far less likely to intrude and be certain that one has a better handle on the "truth" than others. I'm sure none on WBF are like this ...

There are obviously more versions of attitude and thinking than this, but this gives a flavour to the situation ...

Frank

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I can see where were headed here. I suggested a little experiment that requires 10 minutes and a 10 dollar investment, you never know it could make a difference.

I'm not headed anywhere in particular, Roger. I don't use a preamp. And I'm pretty certain that everything I do use is properly grounded.

Tim

 

[RogerD]

I'm not headed anywhere in particular, Roger. I don't use a preamp. And I'm pretty certain that everything I do use is properly grounded.

Tim

Tim,

I am not talking about "grounding" in the conventional and accepted manner of electrical theory. If you read my prior posts in this thread I lay out my premise that "the Ground" can be used as a pathway to return low level component produced distortion to the ground and thus lower system wide distortion.

If all of your components were designed with a well thought out grounding scheme than your system is operating at a high enough level,good for you.

You don't use a preamp but that doesn't absolve your other equipment from adding low level distortion from your system in general.

 

[mep]

My, my. This thread has taken a turn I didn't foresee, but it's alright. I wish we could all play nice in the sandbox, but there are strong personalities here.

Tom, I guess what I described could be ascribed to phase response. Phase can rotate through 360 degrees and it’s easy to see that two components might not necessarily lock on together at the exact same phase angle as different components change their phase angle across the audio band to some degree (no pun intended). I’m sure that phase differences can cause timing errors and lead to a host of insidious problems that detract from the listening experience.

As for high-end wall outlets, I have never owned any so I can’t comment on what they can or can’t do for the sound. I will say this however; if you have outlets that are 5 years old or more and you replace them with brand new units, I can see that you could possibly hear differences that would be equivalent to cleaning all of your jacks and cable ends. There is bound to be some tarnish/dirt on old connecters and they possibly don’t grip as tight as new outlets would. If you have a super high-end system that is ultra-pure, I don’t doubt that you may hear differences with brand-new high-quality wall outlets that are made with high purity copper.

 

[JackD201]

You don't use a preamp but that doesn't absolve your other equipment from adding low level distortion from your system in general.

Thermal distortion is one of them. In passive systems we hear thermal distortion usually in the tweeters as either the tweeter heating up excessively, the electronics under stress or a combination of both. Having amplifiers inside the cabinets is an active system is an added source of heat. While electrically the amps may be perfectly matched to the drivers, those extra few degrees may contribute to the tweeter crapping out earlier than if the amps were outside and well ventilated. There's only so much air or liquid cooling can do for tweeters. We're trading off potential audible passive xo distortions with potential thermal distortions in a one box active. For active systems I have always preferred those with external components even if the trade off is more and longer cables in the signal path and cost. I'll take XO-less JBLs in a baffle with external active XOs and amps to JBL EONs using the same drivers any day.

 

[RogerD]

my, my. This thread has taken a turn i didn't foresee, but it's alright. I wish we could all play nice in the sandbox, but there are strong personalities here.

rotf

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim,

I am not talking about "grounding" in the conventional and accepted manner of electrical theory.

I really am confused, then, because this made me think that's exactly what you were talking about --

Take a length of 10 AWG primary insulated stranded copper wire and terminate with spade connectors on each end. Then fasten one end to a chassis screw on the preamp. The other end of the wire fasten to the preamp power cord duplex center ground screw.

If you read my prior posts in this thread I lay out my premise that "the Ground" can be used as a pathway to return low level component produced distortion to the ground and thus lower system wide distortion.

Yeah, I thought you were talking about conventional grounding, with a wire, to a chassis, like you described above, and supposing that somehow that grounding could "find" distortions in components, differentiate them from the rest of the signal, and carry them out of the circuits to ground. Sorry Roger, for a minute there I thought you were getting way out there.

So what were you talking about?

Tim

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Thermal distortion is one of them. In passive systems we hear thermal distortion usually in the tweeters as either the tweeter heating up excessively, the electronics under stress or a combination of both. Having amplifiers inside the cabinets is an active system is an added source of heat. While electrically the amps may be perfectly matched to the drivers, those extra few degrees may contribute to the tweeter crapping out earlier than if the amps were outside and well ventilated.

Never heard of this being a problem in active monitors, Jack, but I suppose anything is possible. Most of the monitors I'm familiar with, because the designers know the load each amp will be required to drive, and will not have to push through crossover circuits, are able to get great performance out of much lower current, higher efficiency amps that don't generate much heat. Perhaps that's an explanation. I know I left mine on all day and the back plates are barely warm right now. If thermal overload of the tweeters due to the proximity of the amps in actives was a problem, I expect the pro world would have dropped the idea rather quickly rather than almost universally adopting it.

Tim

 

[JackD201]

You're lucky Tim, or maybe not lucky but chose wisely. Nearfield actives I've used extensively were typically larger ones with 8" woofers. Plates amps would definitely run hot. The problem is it's hard to tell, for me anyway, whether the distortion was from the amps or the voice coils. In active separates, keeping the amps warm but not hot always kept distortion down. VC thermal distortion is a little trickier to assess. Coils easily reach 220 degrees F, going up to 280 degrees brings distortion up as much or grater than 30%! I'm assuming, again just assuming that a higher internal ambient temperature will be bad because cooling will take longer. How big a factor that is in practical terms is sketchy for me because VCs heat up real fast, but cooling never happens quickly. Most passives get a bad rap because impedance shifts as temp changes thus making FR less than linear/flat except in very narrow SPL ranges wherein they are tested and finally voiced. These react with passives (those are the distortions related to efficiency you talk about) that do not incorporate impedance stabilization circuits, which I gather is the greater majority of loudspeakers on the market. These cost time and money for improvements very few care about much.

It will be a tough thing for the pro world to drop because the benefits of convenience and performance that is more than acceptable to most except the most anal retentive is too great. What we are seeing however is more robust heat sinking for plate amps so at least we know the problems aren't being ignored.

 

[MylesBAstor]

My, my. This thread has taken a turn I didn't foresee, but it's alright. I wish we could all play nice in the sandbox, but there are strong personalities here.

Tom, I guess what I described could be ascribed to phase response. Phase can rotate through 360 degrees and it’s easy to see that two components might not necessarily lock on together at the exact same phase angle as different components change their phase angle across the audio band to some degree (no pun intended). I’m sure that phase differences can cause timing errors and lead to a host of insidious problems that detract from the listening experience.

As for high-end wall outlets, I have never owned any so I can’t comment on what they can or can’t do for the sound. I will say this however; if you have outlets that are 5 years old or more and you replace them with brand new units, I can see that you could possibly hear differences that would be equivalent to cleaning all of your jacks and cable ends. There is bound to be some tarnish/dirt on old connecters and they possibly don’t grip as tight as new outlets would. If you have a super high-end system that is ultra-pure, I don’t doubt that you may hear differences with brand-new high-quality wall outlets that are made with high purity copper.

Much depends upon the situation Mark. Someone for instance, moving into an apt or home may find the outlets have been in the wall since the building was built. These were not high quality to begin with and probably cost a quarter each. I've replaced many outlets over the year and many have literally crumbled in my hands. The connections are arced and pitted in addition. So it's no wonder that changing to almost any new outlet will improve the sound But obviously different outlets sound different for many reasons including the types of metals used in the plating and tightness of connection. I was always impressed by the Wattagate outlets where you literally had to put a foot on the wall to pull the plug out I've been using some from Jim Weill of Sound Applications for some time now. He sent me his new models a while back but the though of maybe moving has stopped me from replacing my current receptacles.

One thing that I've found when rewiring, putting new dedicated lines in or new receptacles: it takes a couple of weeks to break them in (esp. new lines). For the first week or two, the sound tends to be inexorably bright and then that diminishes with time, thankfully!

 

[Steve williams]

I've been using some from Jim Weill of Sound Applications for some time now.

I've been using Jim's Sound Application's Power Line Conditioners for at the last 8-10 years. In fact Jim installed the first version of his line conditioner personally at my house and I have had 2 newer versions since.A true mom and pop company with Jim and one assistant building the units and his wife Connie designing the units. IIRC she was the first female to graduate from annapolis with an EE degree.

 

[Gregadd]

Much depends upon the situation Mark. Someone for instance, moving into an apt or home may find the outlets have been in the wall since the building was built. These were not high quality to begin with and probably cost a quarter each. I've replaced many outlets over the year and many have literally crumbled in my hands. The connections are arced and pitted in addition. So it's no wonder that changing to almost any new outlet will improve the sound But obviously different outlets sound different for many reasons including the types of metals used in the plating and tightness of connection. I was always impressed by the Wattagate outlets where you literally had to put a foot on the wall to pull the plug out I've been using some from Jim Weill of Sound Applications for some time now. He sent me his new models a while back but the though of maybe moving has stopped me from replacing my current receptacles.

One thing that I've found when rewiring, putting new dedicated lines in or new receptacles: it takes a couple of weeks to break them in (esp. new lines). For the first week or two, the sound tends to be inexorably bright and then that diminishes with time, thankfully!

http://www.stereophile.com/content/furutechs-gtx-receptacles

You're not alone Myles.

 

[DonH50]

This is a strange thread, and I didn't even read it all...

On grounding I see a couple of possibilities:

1. A large-gauge wire offers a lower-impedance path to ground, potentially (no pun intended!) helping reduce the impact of ground loops and/or coupled noise by providing a path to house/earth ground through the outlet instead of winding around the components. Note some components use low-value resistors to "break" the ground path, hopefully preventing ground loops while still offering the protection of a safety ground.

2. A component that does not use the safety ground may benefit by having its chassis connected to earth ground via the output safety ground. This could reduce the impact of EMI/RFI and again short a ground loop formed among other components.

No idea how valid (i.e. audible) any of that might be as it is by nature very system-dependent...

 

[fas42]

This is a strange thread, and I didn't even read it all...

On grounding I see a couple of possibilities:

1. A large-gauge wire offers a lower-impedance path to ground, potentially (no pun intended!) helping reduce the impact of ground loops and/or coupled noise by providing a path to house/earth ground through the outlet instead of winding around the components. Note some components use low-value resistors to "break" the ground path, hopefully preventing ground loops while still offering the protection of a safety ground.

2. A component that does not use the safety ground may benefit by having its chassis connected to earth ground via the output safety ground. This could reduce the impact of EMI/RFI and again short a ground loop formed among other components.

No idea how valid (i.e. audible) any of that might be as it is by nature very system-dependent...

The being "system dependent" is the big headache in all this: what works brilliantly in one system may do nothing in another, while a third setup may sound quite worse off for the execise. This is because other factors are also involved, which all interact ...

Frank

 

[Gregadd]

or for $5.97 you can have this.http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053