Speed Kills
- Thread starter mep
- Start date
I don't disagree with much of that, micro. In fact, there's not all that much about vinyl, IMO, that does not degrade imaging. When I spoke of rumble and surface noise (which no turntable at no price can completely eliminate) I was talking about "sound stage," not imaging. Different things. And I don't think those noises actually improve sound stage, but they do create an illusion of ambience that many seem to like and seem to hear as an expanded sound stage. My mileage varies. I can't comment on the Krell. What is it, do you suppose, that changes in the performance of those components over the course of those hours, to result in the effect you hear? Does the precision of the imaging itself change -- the placement of instruments and the deliniation between them in the horizontal frame, or is it just "sound stage" that changes?
Tim
if you have a ribbon tweeter, and a ceramic mid-range driver, you can get pretty close to the speed of a planer or electrostat or horn. and the integration and coherence in the bass is many orders of magnatude better.....so overall top to bottom balance and coherence is on another level if you expect a true full range system.
if you can live with either less low frequency extension or less than ideal bass coherence then those other driver technologies do offer the ultimate in speed.
there are other aspects of the presentation that dynamic drivers have advantages in too; but we are speaking here about speed.
Tim said;
here we go again. so tell us about your experience comparing duplex outlets. or any power grid upgrades at all. investigate the issue. read my post about the outlets and then my response to Frantz's comments before you just shoot from the hip.
with all due respect, you really don't know what you are talking about.
here we go again. so tell us about your experience comparing duplex outlets. or any power grid upgrades at all. investigate the issue. read my post about the outlets and then my response to Frantz's comments before you just shoot from the hip.
with all due respect, you really don't know what you are talking about.
it's perfect with a ribbon tweeter and a sufficinetly fast dynamic mid-range driver (like the Accuton ceramic). it's the ribbon mid-bass and a dynamic woofer where it does not work....which is where the music lives.
Last edited:
In my experience the different duplexes and the improvement of one over the other is a better ground connection. The ground connection is the single most important way to rid the system of low level distortion. Each component has it's own grounding scheme and some are excellent and some are less. The majority of systems are not matched perfectly and it really doesn't matter to a percentage because the current moving through the device causes distortion. A pathway for this low level distortion by ground is the only way to rid the system of this type of distortion.
As far as the speakers, as this type of distortion is reduced the off axis performance of the speaker will improve and the soundstage will take on a holographic quality. While this can be recording dependent to some extent the vast majority of recordings will in the best ultra low level systems mimic the space and time of the original recording venue. Can most speakers achieve this kind of performance? If your system images well they certainly can.
Also reducing low level distortion is cumulative as every facet of the system will improve. Aside from the soundstage and imaging, the most noticeable improvement will be clarity,speed and dynamics, of which the standout will be the bass or low end of the system, very detailed with power,sock,and nuance,the hallmark of ultra low level distortion.
There are other types of distortion that effect mostly clarity and that has mostly to do with cabling, but that is minor and can be improved at minimum cost,in fact once you have the quality pieces in place,it is not expensive to approach this level of performance. That's my take.
Last edited:
Back to my question, from the hip: Are we talking about something with some kind of filter in it? No? Then any noise it eliminates must have been present in the outlet it replaced, which means it was not functioning properly. Changing one good outlet for another changes nothing entering the outlet and filters nothing leaving the outlet. It can only reduce the noise that existed in the outlet it replaced. It has no means or opportunity to do anything more than that. Power grid upgrades - unless you're filtering, or upgrading the entire grid back to the power plant, are a larger example of the same issue. If they are audibly noisy, they need to be fixed, not "upgraded." And be prepared to fail, the noise may come from outside of your control, outside of the loop of your home's grid. But - and I'm just guessing here - you're not hearing a buzz or a hum disappear when you replace a bad outlet with a good one, you're hearing an expansion of the sound stage and a greater depth of micro detail when you change from an expensive outlet to a more expensive one. Is that about right?
Some things, like an audible improvement from changing one perfectly good outlet for another, require no experience, Mike, just some understanding of how things work and the acceptance of the law of parsimony where it is quite obviously applicable. Others, like grounding problems and audible noise in your home's wiring grid, require no experience to hear, but considerable experience to deal with. I'd suggest you begin at the breaker box. Or hire an electrician.
Or perhaps I'm all wet (a dangerous condition in this conversation). Maybe your first batch of audiophile AC outlets were microphonic. Take them out of the wall, then. Put them on some big feet.
Tim
i'll agree that if you accept enough compromise, everything works. so it is a matter of the degree of compromise you are willing to accept. a ribbon tweeter mates with a ceramic dynamic mid-range driver quite a bit better, and at a considerably less critcal frequency range, than the a full range stat, planer, or horn does with a dynamic woofer. our ears and most instruments require ultimate coherence and correctness of timbre in the lower mids-upper bass-mid bass area. sure; there are systems where that transition is pretty good that use those technologies, but 'pretty good' in that area is not SOTA performance. at the end of the day, i choose true full range coherence as what floats my boat.....and drivers that do have the speed to get very close to those other technologies.
it helps that dynamic drivers can work with more modest amps than stats and planers; to me that really makes the choice easier. also that dynamic drivers bring more weight to the soundstage.
i could live with big Maggies, or Soundlabs, or even Avantgards. they are all great speaker systems with their particular magic. it's not a matter of good and bad, but one of personal preference.
Where the stats, sub crosses over, there is considerably less music. So if you are crossing over at <=100hz it is not as critical. There is a lot more music at the crossover point for the ribbon, ceremic driver. that makes it considerably more critical.
Any way we are in substantial agreement.
I would say that I heard the PD, Evolution Acoustics, and Dartzeel at RMAF 2010. If financially able I would have bought it on the spot.
Any way we are in substantial agreement.
I would say that I heard the PD, Evolution Acoustics, and Dartzeel at RMAF 2010. If financially able I would have bought it on the spot.
Back to my question, from the hip: Are we talking about something with some kind of filter in it? No? Then any noise it eliminates must have been present in the outlet it replaced, which means it was not functioning properly. Changing one good outlet for another changes nothing entering the outlet and filters nothing leaving the outlet. It can only reduce the noise that existed in the outlet it replaced. It has no means or opportunity to do anything more than that. Power grid upgrades - unless you're filtering, or upgrading the entire grid back to the power plant, are a larger example of the same issue. If they are audibly noisy, they need to be fixed, not "upgraded." And be prepared to fail, the noise may come from outside of your control, outside of the loop of your home's grid. But - and I'm just guessing here - you're not hearing a buzz or a hum disappear when you replace a bad outlet with a good one, you're hearing an expansion of the sound stage and a greater depth of micro detail when you change from an expensive outlet to a more expensive one. Is that about right?
Some things, like an audible improvement from changing one perfectly good outlet for another, require no experience, Mike, just some understanding of how things work and the acceptance of the law of parsimony where it is quite obviously applicable. Others, like grounding problems and audible noise in your home's wiring grid, require no experience to hear, but considerable experience to deal with. I'd suggest you begin at the breaker box. Or hire an electrician.
Or perhaps I'm all wet (a dangerous condition in this conversation). Maybe your first batch of audiophile AC outlets were microphonic. Take them out of the wall, then. Put them on some big feet.
Tim
The prior duplexes had nothing wrong with them,not defective in anyway. The 2nd set had better grounding,simple and whether it's the design or metal used,it can be improved upon because that improvement is incremental.
Btw there is nothing wrong with MikeL's electrical system. He has more than enough in place to extract the last bit of low level distortion from his equipment. The solution is to create a pathway for the "current" distortion to go back to ground,very simple concept.
Last edited:
Roger and Mike
I don't believe that outlets, standards-compliant outlets mated to standards-compliant jack makes a difference. They simply can't. It is true however that a good ground help a system performance. Hospital grade outlets are usually better than the usual domestic ones. I stop at the cryo treatment and other "maquillage" that are put on a hospital grade to have its price jacked-up to $240. For that price I need to see incontrovertible objective evidence of what they do differently. In which case If they made repeatable measurable difference in performance they w0ould be used in ALL advanced research laboratories. I am not sure any do. Perhaps if one digs long enough, one might find one at the super accelerator at CERN or other high flight research facility. I would not ask any of my friends here at the WBF to hold their breath while this search would be going on! Before my skepticism of many audio tweaks got to where I am now, I did try the outlet thing. I heard NO improvement or degradation. It was clear however that the Hospital Grade outlets, I used (Hubbell), held the power cords much better than the domestic ones. From that point on I have always used Hospital Grade simply for the better grip and to distinguish UPS connected outlets to regular 9normal house power) outlets.
I do believe however that cleaning the AC power from all the garbage it grabs and carries along its travel from the power plant to our homes and even within or own homes could help a system . It seems to have helped mine when I did so. I must also say that I find myself somewhat lonely in pursuing clean AC power to the system: Audiophiles would rather go after their dear and fine looking Power Conditioners and their nice and expensive Power Cords rather than addressing the AC power quality issues. Power Quality is not obtained with cyro-treated outlets. It requires more.
Coming back to another point of contention: The sweet spot. The off-axis characteristics of any speaker are determined by several factors all of them physical, measurable and in most instances electromechanical (driver geometry, construction, baffle and of course crossover points and slopes). Once the speaker is made these are set once and forever (barring material deterioration). They remain the same throughout the existence of the speaker. That the speaker be driven by the best Tubes or SS amplifiers will make not a dent in the dispersion characteristics of a speaker.
Now about resonances: These have come to be the new word. We have already assassinated “Transparency” making it meaningless … Now it is our assault on “resonances” ... What does resonance has to do with a properly constructed outlet? Really? What is the science behind it? Metallurgy? I doubt it...It's been known for a while that Silver is the best conductor , followed by copper... what difference would these really make …Would anyone bet their hard earned money on being able to reliably perceive the differences brought by … carbon fiber outlet costing the brutal amount of $200 per ..outlets??? ?
What we refuse to admit is how our recollection or recollection of perceptions is elastic and unreliable. I am not saying that one cannot through audition and measurements coerce more from their systems but there are things we simply can’t hear. One of them is the sound of a properly constructed outlet. And we will tweak and we will her new things that were always there but which then we didn’t focus on... These revelations always come after a tweak … I have given up on these tweaks. They take too much valuable time that I would rather dedicate to music listening … I have close to 2000 CDs and I have not heard most of them … too little time. Yes I will take the time to treat my room, clean my AC power and position my speaker after that …
I don't believe that outlets, standards-compliant outlets mated to standards-compliant jack makes a difference. They simply can't. It is true however that a good ground help a system performance. Hospital grade outlets are usually better than the usual domestic ones. I stop at the cryo treatment and other "maquillage" that are put on a hospital grade to have its price jacked-up to $240. For that price I need to see incontrovertible objective evidence of what they do differently. In which case If they made repeatable measurable difference in performance they w0ould be used in ALL advanced research laboratories. I am not sure any do. Perhaps if one digs long enough, one might find one at the super accelerator at CERN or other high flight research facility. I would not ask any of my friends here at the WBF to hold their breath while this search would be going on! Before my skepticism of many audio tweaks got to where I am now, I did try the outlet thing. I heard NO improvement or degradation. It was clear however that the Hospital Grade outlets, I used (Hubbell), held the power cords much better than the domestic ones. From that point on I have always used Hospital Grade simply for the better grip and to distinguish UPS connected outlets to regular 9normal house power) outlets.
I do believe however that cleaning the AC power from all the garbage it grabs and carries along its travel from the power plant to our homes and even within or own homes could help a system . It seems to have helped mine when I did so. I must also say that I find myself somewhat lonely in pursuing clean AC power to the system: Audiophiles would rather go after their dear and fine looking Power Conditioners and their nice and expensive Power Cords rather than addressing the AC power quality issues. Power Quality is not obtained with cyro-treated outlets. It requires more.
Coming back to another point of contention: The sweet spot. The off-axis characteristics of any speaker are determined by several factors all of them physical, measurable and in most instances electromechanical (driver geometry, construction, baffle and of course crossover points and slopes). Once the speaker is made these are set once and forever (barring material deterioration). They remain the same throughout the existence of the speaker. That the speaker be driven by the best Tubes or SS amplifiers will make not a dent in the dispersion characteristics of a speaker.
Now about resonances: These have come to be the new word. We have already assassinated “Transparency” making it meaningless … Now it is our assault on “resonances” ... What does resonance has to do with a properly constructed outlet? Really? What is the science behind it? Metallurgy? I doubt it...It's been known for a while that Silver is the best conductor , followed by copper... what difference would these really make …Would anyone bet their hard earned money on being able to reliably perceive the differences brought by … carbon fiber outlet costing the brutal amount of $200 per ..outlets??? ?
What we refuse to admit is how our recollection or recollection of perceptions is elastic and unreliable. I am not saying that one cannot through audition and measurements coerce more from their systems but there are things we simply can’t hear. One of them is the sound of a properly constructed outlet. And we will tweak and we will her new things that were always there but which then we didn’t focus on... These revelations always come after a tweak … I have given up on these tweaks. They take too much valuable time that I would rather dedicate to music listening … I have close to 2000 CDs and I have not heard most of them … too little time. Yes I will take the time to treat my room, clean my AC power and position my speaker after that …
Frantz,
I agree with you about power quality,no doubt about it. The problem is it is almost impossible to have a multi component system that is matched with proper grounding schemes. First off 95 pct of manufacturers will not spend the dollars to do what is necessary. Even if the the system was matched, there is the problem of "current" distortion created in the actual circuits. So how do you optimize the system to mitigate this distortion? You create a pathway for the distortion to go back to ground. The preamp is the junction or magnet for this distortion. The amplifier could be a significant source but it is not a given,because if it is well made and the grounding design is well executed it might not be a significant factor.
This is the foundation, as every little improvement will manifest itself clearly,no pun intended.
I agree with you about power quality,no doubt about it. The problem is it is almost impossible to have a multi component system that is matched with proper grounding schemes. First off 95 pct of manufacturers will not spend the dollars to do what is necessary. Even if the the system was matched, there is the problem of "current" distortion created in the actual circuits. So how do you optimize the system to mitigate this distortion? You create a pathway for the distortion to go back to ground. The preamp is the junction or magnet for this distortion. The amplifier could be a significant source but it is not a given,because if it is well made and the grounding design is well executed it might not be a significant factor.
This is the foundation, as every little improvement will manifest itself clearly,no pun intended.
IMHO , sound stage and imaging can not be separated. Sound stage creates the spatial perspective that strongly affects the whole imaging. Also imaging is not just a 3D puzzle where you can locate instruments - it is much more than that. It is the low level information that creates a space around instruments and enhances their spatial dependency. Also it does not scale linearly. All these effects are very noticeable in symphonic music.
The first thing you will note in a vintage cold Krell system is that the image seems flat (2D) and although the system can play loud it does not fill the room with sound.
There are two recordings that I remember that showed this effect particularly well: Airto Moreira "Killer Bees" B&W music and Louis Verdieu - Louis - VTL recordings.
Attachments
What do you consider clean AC power? What is more - using shielded balancing power transformers ?
I don't doubt for a moment that Mike's electrical system is beyond SOTA. And I don't doubt that his electrical system includes an excellent path back to ground. But I'm still lost; in the context of a wall outlet, please explain incremental grounding for me.
Tim
The improvement is incremental in overall sound reproduction. This distortion type will always take the path of least resistance and that path is back to "ground".
Take a length of 10 AWG primary insulated stranded copper wire and terminate with spade connectors on each end. Then fasten one end to a chassis screw on the preamp. The other end of the wire fasten to the preamp power cord duplex center ground screw. See if there is any improvement in soundstage width. The improvement should be noticeable almost immediately and continue to improve over time. If the soundstage collapses then your system is probably at or close to it's limit.
Last edited:
I think we may suffer from a personal semantic gap regarding imaging and sound stage. And my semantics may very well be at fault. When I think of imaging, I think of the placement of instruments in a space between the speakers -- the lead singer is here, just left of center...the backup vocalists are in a cluster to his stage left and a few feet behind him (if it's really good you may even be able to locate the individuals in that cluster) the piano is center/right, the trumpet a couple of feet further right...etc. This is primarily a function of the mix -- panning of voices and instruments in stereo and volume levels relative to each other that create the illusion of depth. It can be boogered by really bad electronics, speakers that don't disperse well or have bad off-axis FR, or, worst of all, bad room acoustics. But all of it is present, if presented differently, even in headphones. What I think of as sound stage is absolutely dependent upon speakers, speaker placement, and room acoustics. It is making something larger of that imaging through the interaction of the speakers and the ambient environment of the room they are playing in. This is where you can have a sound stage that is bigger than the distance between the speakers themselves and deeper than the distance between the speakers and the listening position. Indeed, it can sometimes acutally seem bigger than the room. My illusion, my definition. YMMV.
Sorry, I wasn't asking about what you hear, I was wondering what changes in the amplifier happen in those 2 hours of warm-up to create what you hear. It sounds like a pretty dramatic effect. Are you aware of any measurable changes that have been reported?
Tim
1. This a ridiculous oversimplification and probably erroneous conclusion. Imaging is perhaps better associated with things like cross-talk and phase response...
2. Digital can not image worth a nickel, whether we're talking about dimensionality/body of an instrument, placement or soundstage depth. I've done comparison of tape vs a high-rez digital copy and the digital copy always loses the spatiality and imaging of the tape, not to mention slaughters the upper octaves. It is far from a mirror image recreation of the original source.
3. Spatial recreation is not imaging. Imaging is the placement of instruments within the "soundstage."
4. Noise has little to do with imaging. Spatial recreation is mostly the ability to correctly recreate the low frequencies as well as the low level resolution of information.This low level information just gives the brain a greater ability to put together a cohearent (!) picture of the instrument in the mind's eye. Headphones or near field listening can't do that.
5. You really do need to hear a system that can properly image. We're talking about soundstage width, height and depth, layering and pinpoint placement of instruments, the ability to define the edge of an instrument, the ability to separate and recreated the transparency between instruments both laterally and depthwise, etc.
6. The equipment's power supply (and all that entails) has a large bearing on soundstaging stability and imaging.
Good power supplies tend to be more expensive to build and that in part separates the "best" of class from the more "affordable" components.
7. Oh and most digital recordings have their ambience artificially added.
Similar threads
