State of the industry - Roy Gregory Editorial

[bonzo75]

One problem with these non scientific devices is that they provide very limited information and can not be used in a reliable way - I know that if the measurements are nice looking and we like turntable sound we are happy to see them. But will people be happy to know that the equivalent measurements of the $20k Technics SP-1000R are better?

Just MHO, but I prefer no measurements at all to "informal baseline" data. BTW, we had a thread about this subject sometime ago.

Measurements are like videos. They need not be accurate. If he says it is "the best measured TT with platterspeed and shaknspin" what is the harm in checking it out. He has provided measurements for both. Like many videos he does not provide the measurements in isolation, nor is the reader meant to take them in isolation.

He provides additional listening impressions, comparisons, and in the particular case of K3, purchase decision. If he had made the measurement with a more accurate device, it would have changed nothing. So whether it was accurate or not, and even if it was, what it means to the sound is as relevant a discussion as are videos accurate.

Ps: That said, videos would have been more representative than the measurements

 

[the sound of Tao]

Tim,

Words have clear meaning in science and also in audio science - I am not addressing a few magazines articles, but thousands of papers published in refereed publications and books by audio experts. I stick to such lexicon.

People are free to negate the traditional and respected use of words, creating a lot of confusion and trying to emerge as the creators of something new. As long as they do it in their system threads I will respect their wishes, only participating in them if I find their alternative perspective and language denigrates and misleads people about the more frequent current views.

BTW, "valid individual subjective opinion" in this context means an "individual subjective opinion" that was formulated in conditions that assure us that it was an independent opinion of the person.

Believe or not, audio has formal science behind it - did you read about the listening tests that Valdimir Lamm carried to validate his perceptual models?

You can surely disregard such aspects considering them as "forum nattering" - my hope is that the WBF members are really interested in discussing something other than just then saying their reference is real sound and else is secondary.

Hi Francisco,
The idea of subjective experience is hardly new… audio science does it’s best to keep up to explain the human condition but all these rules about validity seeks to overide the common sense that subjectivity is simply that and it is always shaped by previous experiences and expectation. Validity is part of interpretation and isn’t black and white when it comes to complex processes like preferences in these contexts. You make it sound like the idea of experience and opinion is only valid under some specific black and white rules.

We hijack language here at the drop of a hat and forever seem to be making new and intractable rules for it. Concepts like these exist in far greater ways beyond boxed out niche stuff like audio. I’d suggest that notions of absolutes in validity when it comes to subjectivity are completely the outlier in this and the world continues to have experiences and we have subjective interpretations of these as part of our consciousness and everything we have done before can alter and shape our perceptions.

Expectation and previous experience always plays a part in how our minds perceive, we love to set up our best guesses about how we can factor all this out and arrive at evidence but we can’t box the process out absolutely. The sensations that we experience are only ever a part of the process and our mind does much then to shape that data into our understanding.

 

[tima]

BTW, "valid individual subjective opinion" in this context means an "individual subjective opinion" that was formulated in conditions that assure us that it was an independent opinion of the person

It is for reasons like this sentence that I responded in the first place. You can also leave out the word 'subjective'. 'Individual opinion' keeps things clear.

 

[PeterA]

One problem with these non scientific devices is that they provide very limited information and can not be used in a reliable way - I know that if the measurements are nice looking and we like turntable sound we are happy to see them. But will people be happy to know that the equivalent measurements of the $20k Technics SP-1000R are better?

Just MHO, but I prefer no measurements at all to "informal baseline" data. BTW, we had a thread about this subject sometime ago.

In my opinion it depends entirely if better measurements Correlate to better sound or come with a penalty. Measurements are not everything or everyone would have a Technics direct drive turntable. Some people prefer the sound of a vintage Denon turntable.

 

[microstrip]

Hi Francisco,
The idea of subjective experience is hardly new… audio science does it’s best to keep up to explain the human condition but all these rules about validity seeks to overide the common sense that subjectivity is simply that and it is always shaped by previous experiences and expectation. Validity is part of interpretation and isn’t black and white when it comes to complex processes like preferences in these contexts. You make it sound like the idea of experience and opinion is only valid under some specific black and white rules.

We hijack language here at the drop of a hat and forever seem to be making new and intractable rules for it. Concepts like these exist in far greater ways beyond boxed out niche stuff like audio. I’d suggest that notions of absolutes in validity when it comes to subjectivity are completely the outlier in this and the world continues to have experiences and we have subjective interpretations of these as part of our consciousness and everything we have done before can alter and shape our perceptions.

Expectation and previous experience always plays a part in how our minds perceive, we love to set up our best guesses about how we can factor all this out and arrive at evidence but we can’t box the process out absolutely. The sensations that we experience are only ever a part of the process and our mind does much then to shape that data into our understanding.

I am tempted to agree with most of what you say concerning the subjective experience, but I must remember you that the debate started when Peter used the word "objective". Once we try the jump across the domains we do not have such freedom to play with words.

 

[microstrip]

It is for reasons like this sentence that I responded in the first place. You can also leave out the word 'subjective'. 'Individual opinion' keeps things clear.

I prefer to write it in full to enhance the contrast between concepts. And sorry, can't you leave out your tendency to tell others what they should write or leave?

 

[microstrip]

Measurements are like videos. They need not be accurate. If he says it is "the best measured TT with platterspeed and shaknspin" what is the harm in checking it out. He has provided measurements for both. Like many videos he does not provide the measurements in isolation, nor is the reader meant to take them in isolation.

He provides additional listening impressions, comparisons, and in the particular case of K3, purchase decision. If he had made the measurement with a more accurate device, it would have changed nothing. So whether it was accurate or not, and even if it was, what it means to the sound is as relevant a discussion as are videos accurate.

Ps: That said, videos would have been more representative than the measurements

The problem is that people expect audio measurements to be accurate and have some meaning. We have direct experience of it in our past thread debating them.

And this time I agree with out - better showing videos than such graphs.

 

[tima]

You can also leave out the word 'subjective'. 'Individual opinion' keeps things clear.

And sorry, can't you leave out your tendency to tell others what they should write or leave?

If I tried to tell you what to do I would say "should" not "can".

 

[bonzo75]

If I tried to tell you what to do I would say "should" not "can".

If that works, I will start "shoulding" him then

 

[Audiophile Bill]

The problem is that people expect audio measurements to be accurate and have some meaning. We have direct experience of it in our past thread debating them.

And this time I agree with out - better showing videos than such graphs.

Totally disagree. Michael Fremer is absolutely clear in all his writings that the tools aren’t to be treated as super accurate scientific tools in *absolute* terms but if they are used consistently their *relative* terms are another data point. The most appropriate analogy I can draw on here is electrical impedance scales for body fat measurements at home. Anyone working in the field knows they are inaccurate in absolute terms but they are very useful to track *relative* changes when used over time.

It also so happens that the measurements correlate directionally very well indeed with the formal measured data from hifi news. Would be curious to actually see the R squared for this.

Finally absolute measurements are of little value to majority of end users. They don’t care whether their TT has speed stability +/- x% per se - it is much more the ranking. For example does their TT have low w/f in the field of commercially available TTs. Does their TT hold absolute speed stability well.

YouTube videos has nothing to do with any of this whatsoever. It is a mutually exclusive data point carrying its own value set.

imho ymmv

 

[tima]

If that works, I will start "shoulding" him then

heh - I think it works grammatically ... cognitively, that's a whole nother can of worms.

Verbs have 'moods' that indicate how the verb is used, to help understand the intention of the speaker.

Indicative mood expresses a fact.
--- You can go to school.

Imperative mood expresses a command or a request.
--- You really should go to school.

Interrogative mood expresses uncertainty through a question.
--- Are you sure about not going to the concert?

Conditional mood expresses a conditional; sometimes used with another verb
--- We would go to the concert but they demand vaccination proof.

Subjunctive mood expresses a hypothetical.
--- If you are going to contribute on WBF, beware of grammarians.

 

[morricab]

Totally disagree. Michael Fremer is absolutely clear in all his writings that the tools aren’t to be treated as super accurate scientific tools in *absolute* terms but if they are used consistently their *relative* terms are another data point. The most appropriate analogy I can draw on here is electrical impedance scales for body fat measurements at home. Anyone working in the field knows they are inaccurate in absolute terms but they are very useful to track *relative* changes when used over time.

It also so happens that the measurements correlate directionally very well indeed with the formal measured data from hifi news. Would be curious to actually see the R squared for this.

Finally absolute measurements are of little value to majority of end users. They don’t care whether their TT has speed stability +/- x% per se - it is much more the ranking. For example does their TT have low w/f in the field of commercially available TTs. Does their TT hold absolute speed stability well.

YouTube videos has nothing to do with any of this whatsoever. It is a mutually exclusive data point carrying its own value set.

imho ymmv

If the R2 was better than 0.5 I would be mightily surprised! Geddes showed that there was NO correlation between listening preference and THD or IMD...in fact the slope was slightly negative but R2 very low. With his metric he was able to achieve a good correlation. So, using data processed in the right way can yield a lot of information but the raw data itself is limited.

 

[morricab]

heh - I think it works grammatically ... cognitively, that's a whole nother can of worms.

Verbs have 'moods' that indicate how the verb is used, to help understand the intention of the speaker.

Indicative mood expresses a fact.
--- You can go to school.

Imperative mood expresses a command or a request.
--- You really should go to school.

Interrogative mood expresses uncertainty through a question.
--- Are you sure about not going to the concert?

Conditional mood expresses a conditional; sometimes used with another verb
--- We would go to the concert but they demand vaccination proof.

Subjunctive mood expresses a hypothetical.
--- If you are going to contribute on WBF, beware of grammarians.

I am now officially wary of you...

I would simply be happy if people would stop trying to sound intellectual and coming up largely with word salad. I write about rather sophisticated ideas and concepts but I always strive for maximum understanding in what I am trying to communicate. It is part of my scientific training where, as a Ph.D student, we had to present our work annually to the whole department, including a lot of critical professors (this was on top of the conference presentations/posters etc. we were expected to give). If you were not clear and demonstrating critical thinking they would excoriate you...several students were brought to tears. I think today this would not be allowed, but in the early-mid 90s the professors could be merciless without recourse. I even know of one instance where a student killed his advisor after he failed to get his Ph.D!

Not saying you make a word salad Tim...but sometimes your require more than one read through for me to get all you are trying to communicate.

 

[tima]

Not saying you make a word salad Tim...but sometimes your require more than one read through for me to get all you are trying to communicate.

Sure, I have no problem with that, I'm somewhat guilty as charged. I try not to write like an academic, but it still seeps through. I hope my reviews are better than my forum posts. And thanks for thinking I'm trying to communicate.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

If the R2 was better than 0.5 I would be mightily surprised! Geddes showed that there was NO correlation between listening preference and THD or IMD...in fact the slope was slightly negative but R2 very low. With his metric he was able to achieve a good correlation. So, using data processed in the right way can yield a lot of information but the raw data itself is limited.

Sorry I am talking about R2 of ranking of wow/flutter and speed stability per the app versus hifi news lab measurement ranking…

 

[andromedaaudio]

Guys are we still discussing measurements and TT performances based on a cell phone app .
If i would propose this in my profession i get kicked of site immediately.
I m sure WBF can do better that

 

[morricab]

Sorry I am talking about R2 of ranking of wow/flutter and speed stability per the app versus hifi news lab measurement ranking…

Ah, ok. Not sure how close that would match either...

 

[MarcelNL]

Guys are we still discussing measurements and TT performances based on a cell phone app .
If i would propose this in my profession i get kicked of site immediately

eerr, apps measuring health data for diagnosing have been registered so I'm not sure what the issue is unless you compare specificity and sensitivity between the app using a specific measurement protocol and compare that to whatever the gold standard is (if there is one since a lot of measurement methods are being used out of want for a better one and not because the method use is the best available)

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Ah, ok. Not sure how close that would match either...

I am fully confident that will be above 0.6 at the very least. I reckon likely much higher.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Guys are we still discussing measurements and TT performances based on a cell phone app .
If i would propose this in my profession i get kicked of site immediately.
I m sure WBF can do better that

Err no - think you missed the point