State of the industry - Roy Gregory Editorial
- Thread starter Elliot G.
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I didn't want to actually come out and say that.
Better to avoid the bias of group consensus.
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Fortunately the number of people who make guesses on others opinions in WBF is small, so the number of wrong guesses is statistically meaningless.
But it is curious that for some people the word "bias" seems to be taboo - they get nervous and anxious when they even smell it and start making guesses or commenting guesses, never asking direct questions.
Peter, you can consider what ever you want for you, it is just your opinion and findings, I have no reason to doubt on it. However when addressing the aim of becoming objective, your post most interesting point, IMHO these biased opinions taken in the conditions you addressed are not valid as a proof.
I don't own a TT and don't adjust them. But I would guess this is a lot like speaker positioning. As the speakers get more and more locked in and coherent it doesn't matter where you are in the room you don't have to listen very hard to hear a drastic improvement in sound quality.
Everyone is biased toward something. They may prefer a sound that is warm or may prefer lean. They may not care much about pinpoint imaging. etc. But if the cartridge adjustments are like speaker adjustments then the changes are probably rather obvious. If you are nitpicking the sound then biggest risk may be for one or two of the people to go along with the person who said "Yeah, that is better. I hear XYZ." More laborious, but a good way of conducting this would be go give each person a sheet(s) of paper and they have to write down what they thought was better or worse with each adjustment. It just depends on the goal of the listening session. Perhaps the goal is to just show inexperienced TT people how radically the sound quality can change by making rather small adjustments to the cartridge.
This is mostly why I don't own a TT. I am far to neurotic to deal with that kind of tweaking knob.
Everyone is biased toward something. They may prefer a sound that is warm or may prefer lean. They may not care much about pinpoint imaging. etc. But if the cartridge adjustments are like speaker adjustments then the changes are probably rather obvious. If you are nitpicking the sound then biggest risk may be for one or two of the people to go along with the person who said "Yeah, that is better. I hear XYZ." More laborious, but a good way of conducting this would be go give each person a sheet(s) of paper and they have to write down what they thought was better or worse with each adjustment. It just depends on the goal of the listening session. Perhaps the goal is to just show inexperienced TT people how radically the sound quality can change by making rather small adjustments to the cartridge.
This is mostly why I don't own a TT. I am far to neurotic to deal with that kind of tweaking knob.
$360k including tt and arm. $50k extra for the stand.
$450k for the base model + extra for an arm. +$50k for the tungsten platter. stand extra.
Hmm, and including the discounts, difference will relatively be lower, so looks like he chose K3 rather than a budget decision
i'd be surprised if Fremer has made any decision about his next 'keeper' tt. but i have no inside info one way or another. we all just have to stay tuned and read the smoke signals.
there are so many versions of the 'ultimate' tt being introduced in the recent past into this next year that you would expect Michael to take his time and play the field. why would he not? a permanent tt would just get in the way.
Same here, I couldn't do it. I enjoy the analog in my friends' systems. But having it myself? No way. There are several other reasons that keep me from pursuing that path as well.
Does he still have the Continuum Audio Labs Caliburn turntable? A good friend owns it and I think it is on par with the current top turntables.
This is what he wrote about the SP10R in OMA plinth
"The power supply of my Con- tinuum Audio Labs Caliburn turntable is starting to fail, and its oil pump has a very slow leak. Should that $150,000 system (the price includes Con- tinuum’s Cobra tonearm, no longer in use) give up the ghost after 13 years of dependable, trouble-free use and abuse from me, I could definitely live happily with the ca-$20,000 combo of Technics SP-10R and OMA SP10 plinth with OMA graphite mat (though I’d sorely miss the Caliburn’s vacuum hold- down) — and, of course, that replace- ment system would have to include a SAT CF1 arm. I don’t think I’ve written that about any other turntable that’s been here since the summer of 2005."
i don't know, other than i've not seen his Caliburn listed for sale. i have no doubt that the Caliburn.....at it's best ........would be mostly competitive with the best current offerings. the rub with the Caliburn is that it's a complicated, involved product, and keeping it in tip top shape is not trivial. it's arm can be bettered. and....... just like the Rockport Sirius III, which has a power supply that can 'go off'......not all used Caliburn's or Sirius III's are equivalent.
and Mr. Fremer likely wants a more relevant reference turntable.
And this about the K3
" In many ways, the K3 reminds me of the Continuum Caliburn, from the international design team to the effective mix of science, art, and reach-for-the-stars innovation. However, 16 years later, the K3's turbocharged, precision performance blows the chrome doors off of the Caliburn, although it is still a great turntable and a classic design. Time marches on. Records spin round and round."
Analog Corner #314: OMA K3 turntable & Schröder tonearm Page 2
Atmospheric pressure maintains a special grade of viscous oil at bearing height within the pressurized inverted bearing upon which the 14", 30lb platter rides.
www.stereophile.com
Let me riff on this. What are we looking for?
Are we looking for "valid individual subjective opinions" ?
Are we looking for "valid objective data" ?
I would think information such as 'the tonearm VTF is set to 1.65 grams" or "the SRA is measured at 91.2° could be considred 'objective data' - assuming of course we used nine different scales and three USB cameras, or whatever measuring is sufficient for conferring 'objective' status on the effort. Unless it is inferred, data is data. Data is neither valid or invalid.
Is a single individual agreeing to that data considered a subjective opinion? And a large group of individuals repeatedly discerning the same measurement makes it objective data? Are data and opinions opposites? No - they are two different things.
I don't know what is a "data opinion".
"Valid" means the conclusion follows from its premises; it is an assessment of a syllogism.
The notion of a "valid individual subjective opinion" sounds a bit like a category mistake. Must we formulate a person's opinion into a syllogism to confer validity? No - we don't care that much about validity - we care if the cartridge adjustments sound better or worse.
Can there ever be a "valid objective assessment" of cartridge setup? No - we can take a bunch of measurements and agree on those, but such is not the objective. The objective is better sound.
Is a group of people generally agreeing on certain things considered "friendship bias" which if it exists is a bad thing? The use of "bias" on this forum tends to be loosey-goosey. "Bias" usually means an inclination or opinion that is unreasoned or preconceived of evidence.
The discussion here strikes me more as forum nattering.
I would welcome a group of friends or even unaffiliated individuals to offer opinions about the sound of various cartridge adjustments. There is no "true" or "valid" cartridge setup apart from what one or more people think of it.
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