State of the industry - Roy Gregory Editorial

[microstrip]

Did you read the paper I posted a link to? First page, 'purpose of a horn'...A horn can be used for directionality (think of the stadium speakers of yesterday) Key aspect here is loading of the driver, a much more efficient way of making air move leading to less distortion in the cone (just look at cone distortions at minimal excursion vs that at Xmax?)
Second page handles directionality

Executive Summary:
-Horns can be made to be directional
-Horns are efficient impedance transformers
-all cone speakers are increasingly directional with incrreasing frequency
-horn shape matters

I suspect you are confusing a design flaw for a characteristic.

To make it simple I quote the AvantGarde site:

" A horn funnel effectively guides the motion of sound waves and thus substantially increases the sensitivity and effectiveness of sound radiations. A horn is the most natural and powerful way to amplify sound. "

The consequence of this guidance is directionality . No directionality, no gain in efficiency.
Please remember that effectively the horn does not amplify anything. It simply matches acoustic impedances to maximize efficient acoustic energy transfer.

Or simply read it here: https://www.psaudio.com/askpaulvideo/are-horn-speakers-really-more-efficient/

 

[andromedaaudio]

People can say anything about FR what they want .
But if you have a horn system with a similar roll off it will sound better and more accurate then before the adjustment .
There are off course intrinsic qualities in horn reproducers which you prefer above all , thats why you buy a horn .
But accurate freq balance is not a bad thing in itself its rewarding in the long run , but its not a be all end thing off course.

My biggest concern with horns is that there is not enough refinement ,.
Often its a stack of reproducers on top of each other without good finetuning, do they use measurement gear in the design process ?

 

[MarcelNL]

To make it simple I quote the AvantGarde site:

" A horn funnel effectively guides the motion of sound waves and thus substantially increases the sensitivity and effectiveness of sound radiations. A horn is the most natural and powerful way to amplify sound. "

The consequence of this guidance is directionality . No directionality, no gain in efficiency.
Please remember that effectively the horn does not amplify anything. It simply matches acoustic impedances to maximize efficient acoustic energy transfer.

Or simply read it here: https://www.psaudio.com/askpaulvideo/are-horn-speakers-really-more-efficient/

And he did by any chance invent the horn, or can it be that he got this wrong ? I'll trade you some YT footage of equal 'disinformatia' quality, pick the topic... there is plenty to go around.

Did you read the article? It refers to original articles, you can lookup most if you want....audio related science.

 

[ddk]

I'm glad you found someone on YouTube who shares your narrative.

I'm comfortable basing my sound quality judgements on what I hear every day. But, I can't help but wonder why some vinyl lovers feel compelled to prop up their opinions of the superiority of vinyl by stating, over and over, and at every opportunity, their opinion of the inferiority of digital playback.

I simply pointed out that your comment about Qvotrup was inaccurate and you're rejecting him based on a lie. His comment and most of my negative comments in the past are specifically about hi rez and streaming and not digital vs analog. You're entitled to your opinion on the subject but you shouldn't embellish other people's comments.

david

 

[microstrip]

And he did by any chance invent the horn, or can it be that he got this wrong ? I'll trade you some YT footage of equal 'disinformatia' quality, pick the topic... there is plenty to go around.

Did you read the article? It refers to original articles, you can lookup most if you want....audio related science.

The article you refer also agrees with me and the other sources I referred :

"You would also think that increasing the output would be one aspect of horns, but
this is included in both. Increasing the loading of the driver over that of free air
increases efficiency and hence the output, and concentrating the sound into a
certain solid solid angle increases the output further "

For those who do not realize it "concentrating the sound into a certain solid solid angle" means increasing the directivity . Do you want me to quote Toole on the subject? He appreciates horns a lot.

 

[microstrip]

How does that manifest itself sonically?

IMHO an absence of envelopment and less depth and width. The sound was more focused around the details and body, less on the soundstage.

 

[bonzo75]

No, you changed your point when multiple people challenged you.

Microdynamics: These shifts in statements made by microstrip

 

[Al M.]

IMHO an absence of envelopment and less depth and width. The sound was more focused around the details and body, less on the soundstage.

Thanks.

 

[microstrip]

I would actually say that the basic and fundamental characteristic of horns is their ability to amplify the output of the driver. This usually results in less movement and thus lower distortion and a more efficient and easier to drive speaker load for the amplifiers allowing one to avoid high powered solid-state amplification.

Peter,

As long as you consider that the horns have the ability to amplify the output of the driver we have little do discuss. Debating what is mainly a technical point needs a minimum of language rigor. Horns are passive devices, they can't increase the power of the signal, they do not amplify it. As I stated elsewhere horns are acoustical impedance converters.

If you do not understand how a horn works you will consider that my firm point is changing.

Do you have an idea from where the acoustic power of a gramophone comes?

 

[microstrip]

Microdynamics: These shifts in statements made by microstrip

You really should get a system. And also get some education on horn theory.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Peter, maybe think about that horns lose less of a driver's power than a driver fitted to a flush surface. they do not amplify, horns contain the energy developed by the driver and concentrate it directionally. the amplifier amplifies by increasing the electrical energy running through the voice coil increasing the force exerted on the air.

just like a nozzle does not amplify water from a hose, it controls and directs it thereby increasing it's force over a smaller orifice. the water pressure is relatively constant to the building typically from the force of gravity (pumps sometimes....they amplify) and various valves and pipe sizes.

 

[wil]

I simply pointed out that your comment about Qvotrup was inaccurate and you're rejecting him based on a lie. His comment and most of my negative comments in the past are specifically about hi rez and streaming and not digital vs analog. You're entitled to your opinion on the subject but you shouldn't embellish other people's comments.

david

I was responding to Awesome's comment, not Qvotrup.

Streaming surely can have it's downfalls. There are many, many poorly made and processed recordings. The quality can be un-predictable. That being said, there is such a vast universe of music available, that it is easy to reject the crap and collect a huge collection of high quality streams or downloads. Looking for a great recording of Beethoven late quartets? You can listen to 20 and probably find 2 or 3 with excellent sound quality. With a well set up network, power supplies, server and dac, I believe carefully selected streaming is the equal of well recorded CD's. It takes some work, like anything worthwhile.

 

[PeterA]

Speaker toe-in? Who is addressing speaker toe-in?

you brought up directivity and claimed it was the characteristic that made horn speakers unique. I am simply saying that all the cone box speakers I’ve heard change a lot depending on the toe in angle. All my friends with box cone speakers play with these angles.

 

[PeterA]

IMHO an absence of envelopment and less depth and width. The sound was more focused around the details and body, less on the soundstage.

This is the exact opposite of what I’ve heard from really good horn systems.

 

[ddk]

I was responding to Awesome's comment, not Qvotrup.

My mistake.
david

 

[BruceD]

Ah Yes Peter Q an enigma of a man in some quarters--but highly successful and kudos to that

I remember him from my time with Peter Merrick at Unlet in the mid 80's --caught up on few occasions since mainly shows

always personable to me--the last time we met he was not well--knees(?) I trust he is back to full health.

-I've owned a DAC 4.1X Bal and DAC 5. Well respected of his companies Digital products.

BruceD

 

[howiebrou]

Ah Yes Peter Q an enigma of a man in some quarters--but highly successful and kudos to that

I remember him from my time with Peter Merrick at Unlet in the mid 80's --caught up on few occasions since mainly shows

always personable to me--the last time we met he was not well--knees(?) I trust he is back to full health.

-I've owned a DAC 4.1X Bal and DAC 5. Well respected of his companies Digital products.

BruceD

I met him a few times last December at the AN factory. He was in rude health and quite charming and funny.

 

[BruceD]

I met him a few times last December at the AN factory. He was in rude health and quite charming and funny.

Yes he has the "Gift of the Gab" --as some say very important in this game

I've mugged the Blarney Stone so I'd be ready to take on all comers too!!

Ah sad on his health--we've lost a couple of the mainstays lately

Thank you for the update there Howie!

BruceD

 

[andromedaaudio]

I spent half a day in the audionote audiotorium in the hague listening to full audionote systems .
Back in 2004 - 5 you had a dealer who set up shop in a beautifull building in the hague in NL .
You could chose from 3 different levels and upgrade accordingly and only audionote products .
I also listened to p qvotrups gear at the doelenshow in r dam back in 2005.
Incl the most expensive silver transformer Sets / audionote speaker combos.
Its more of a love it or hate it sound .
Nice for specific music

 

[Gregm]

Peter, maybe think about that horns lose less of a driver's power than a driver fitted to a flush surface. they do not amplify, (...)

No, indeed. The horn helps to match the impedance of the driver (high mass) to the air (low mass), and thereby leads to a better coupling and, as a result of that, we retain much of the energy of the driver that would otherwise be lost. Hence horn loaded spkrs are more "efficient".
By virtue of this efficiency, hornloaded spkrs can produce very high dynamic swings with realistic amplification.

My biggest concern with horns is that there is not enough refinement ,.
Often its a stack of reproducers on top of each other without good finetuning, do they use measurement gear in the design process ?

Apart from cases of shoddy horn design, this is usually either a matter of spkr placement and /or incompatibility weith the room.
You cannot get very good sound from an A-Trio with basshorn trying to play Mahler in a tiny room

I am not trying to take sides here, but I do appreciate the dynamic swings, the reproduction of minute details, etc of horns.