State of the industry - Roy Gregory Editorial

[ddk]

By all means, keep dragging the the old mule, "Early Digital," out of the barn for a good kick in the shins. Don't bother to consider how good the stallion in the other stall, "Really Good Digital," is today. (sarcasm emoji).

You didn't watch the video he spoke specifically about the current state of digital and hi rez and how bad it sounds!

david

 

[howiebrou]

You are joking, but the experience was carried in the late 80's or 90's - the noise of a blank LP with some pops and crackles being played at a decent turntable was summed to the signal of a CD player at the input of the amplifier. After optimization of the level, it was found that some people preferred the sound with the pops and crackles.

To be honest, it doesn't bother me the slightest.

 

[Elliot G.]

here is another video with Alan Parsons who is the face of the MOC22 and Steven Wilson the face of the last one. talking about audio

 

[microstrip]

Francisco, I agree with you that it is not a horn or not horn thing, but I’m not sure it only comes down to radiation patterns. I think it is more likely a combination of factors.

I will let horn experts chime on the subject, but IMHO the radiation pattern is the source of it all.
The horn gives us higher efficiency, guiding the vibrations emitted by the diaphragm, but also creates a typical radiation pattern.

Admittedly, my exposure is limited and I was not around paying attention in the 70s to these changes. I will say that the 16 ohm Mitsubishi Diatones sounded really wonderful driven by those SET 18 watts. I don’t think they have the same radiation pattern as David’s horn speakers. And even his horns have different shapes which may or may not affect radiation patterns.

I think efficiency is a factor and the type of amplification that certain designs allow. But most importantly, I think it was the values and knowledge of the designers who created products that sound different and reflect different goals.

Surely there are very different types of horns, but you can't have an omnidirectional horn!

Your comment about certain audiophiles being able to survive on a diet of chosen old LPs is quite peculiar. Many hobbyists who listen to original vinyl LPs are doing much better than merely surviving. They seem to be enjoying their choices. And they can get exposed to modern music in other forms. Surely you are aware of this and chose to write what you did.

Yes, it was a Darwin inspired comment with some added humor. Apologies if you did not appreciate it.

 

[andromedaaudio]

will let horn experts chime on the subject.

Thanks micro , i just finished a hard days work , im ready for some entertainment.

When do your new speakers arrive?

 

[bonzo75]

Since you refer to directions, why not remembering that horn/ not horn is a misleading tittle - IMHO it should be highly directional speakers/ not highly directional speakers. The different pattern radiation creates a completely different experience, in part responsible for the preferences.



Even some early digital was better than most LP's of that period. People were tired of pops, clicks and distortion. Although some audiophiles can survive with a diet of chosen old LP's, most audio consumers want recent music and recent performances.

Directional leads to less room interference.
Faster and bigger woofers requiring less grip and push, ability to move more air more quickll
Simpler crossovers. Excellent drivers matched on sensitivity and impedance. 100db+ and 8 or 16 ohm all through plus directional leads to very high coherence
Agility and tone as requirement is for low watt amplifiers with very simple circuits overall leading to much lower loss of signal.

 

[howiebrou]

Just remember all our ear canals are shaped like a horn so y'all have no choice!

 

[RCanelas]

I will let horn experts chime on the subject, but IMHO the radiation pattern is the source of it all.
The horn gives us higher efficiency, guiding the vibrations emitted by the diaphragm, but also creates a typical radiation pattern.

In my opinion directivity is close to the bottom regarding the long line of differences* between horn loading a driver and letting it radiating in any other space. As one can design horns with different flare types, hence different radiation patterns, directivity is a design factor like any other. If anything, comparing to a contemporary traditional loudspeaker (non-cardioid, non-dipole), even if more directive, at least horns can be more consistent.

I couldn't care less about if a loudspeaker is a horn or a lawnmower, especially because I'm sure we all know lawnmowers that are more pleasant to hear that certain loudspeakers, regardless of its operating principle.
I believe talking about these points abstractly, without attaching any particular loudspeaker topology could possibly be a more productive and interesting grounds for discussion.

*Picking on some major differences as examples closer to the top of my long list, most horns have an undisputed advantage regarding certain types of distortion simply because the drivers barely move. Every time you see drivers move, in any loudspeaker, that's second order distortion you can see with your bare eyes. On the other hand, hard-edge terminated horn mouths and internal edges are a massive source of coloration due to diffraction, and plenty of horns show that. Simple examples, with large consequences since these things tend to be structural or tied to construction practicalities.

 

[MarcelNL]

Don't. There are some gems in there if you are willing to keep watching. He doesn't mince words so you're bound to disagree with stuff he says.

If he is Danish as I suspect he'll for sure not mince words ;-)

 

[MarcelNL]

let's add some food for thought in an old fashioned PDF format (article by Bjorn Kolbrek). https://www.grc.com/acoustics/an-introduction-to-horn-theory.p

and some on 'regular' speakers (took a while to dig this out of the wealth of info on the website of the late mr Linkwitz)
https://www.linkwitzlab.com/Sound_field/Field_control.htm

 

[rbbert]

...I couldn't care less about if a loudspeaker is a horn or a lawnmower, especially because I'm sure we all know lawnmowers that are more pleasant to hear that certain loudspeakers, regardless of its operating principle....

electric lawnmowers?

 

[microstrip]

Directional leads to less room interference.

Thanks. But stereo imaging strongly relies on room interference - other way we would probably prefer headphones or anechoic chambers. The ratio between direct and reflected sound is strongly a matter of preference.

Faster and bigger woofers requiring less grip and push, ability to move more air more quickll

I understand what you want to say, but there is no such think as fast bass or air being moved faster. But yes, sometimes bigger woofers being used in the middle zone can make the sound seem "fast". The same for the absence of real low bass.

Simpler crossovers. Excellent drivers matched on sensitivity and impedance. 100db+ and 8 or 16 ohm all through plus directional leads to very high coherence
Agility and tone as requirement is for low watt amplifiers with very simple circuits overall leading to much lower loss of signal.

The concept of simplicity is indeed appealing. But is was never proved that simplicity leaded to much lower loss of signal - in fact it is the opposite.

 

[bonzo75]

Thanks. But stereo imaging strongly relies on room interference - other way we would probably prefer headphones or anechoic chambers. The ratio between direct and reflected sound is strongly a matter of preference.



I understand what you want to say, but there is no such think as fast bass or air being moved faster. But yes, sometimes bigger woofers being used in the middle zone can make the sound seem "fast". The same for the absence of real low bass.



The concept of simplicity is indeed appealing. But is was never proved that simplicity leaded to much lower loss of signal - in fact it is the opposite.

Please listen to some. You have added nothing above

 

[microstrip]

(...) When do your new speakers arrive?

First I have to choose something ... Currently listening to Raidho's with JLAudio subs.

 

[microstrip]

Please listen to some. You have added nothing above

Yes, probably it means nothing for you. Fortunately other WBF members will be able to understand and comment.

 

[PeterA]

Another video with Peter Q from Audio Note UK. The discussion talks a lot about the industry particularly pertinent to this thread when he says we never compare new products with what they replace. I guess this could pertain partly to the new technology is better camp promoted by some VS vintage sounded just as good if not better than modern stuff and modern doesn't equate to better sound camp.
His comments at 34min are particularly interesting.

Thank you Howie for posting this. It was very interesting, despite its long length. The discussion of digital at the beginning and how they settled on 44.1 is fascinating. So was the discussion of low mass turntables with suspension and three motors. He does not seem to like high mass tables, but the best sounding ones I've heard are high mass. The comments about cars at 1:10 are also interesting where he suggests efforts should be in making cars last longer rather than high mileage because of the incredible energy needed to produce a car.

 

[bonzo75]

Yes, probably it means nothing for you. Fortunately other WBF members will be able to understand and comment.

So you actually are misleading WBF members to believe horn preference is due to mainly directional dispersion, and no other key advantages?

What happens when horn woofers have a rear wave, or downward firing bass

 

[MarcelNL]

Agree with Ked,

regular tweeters are pretty directional too, stacked speakers (which seem to have loads of fans) are directional also, there is no black and white in directionality. Some horns are very directional, cone speakers become increasingly directional with increasing frequency. In general a challenge for horn design is directionality, there are many other challenges,...same applies for cone speakers, ribbons etc....ultimately it's all about a specific implementation.

 

[microstrip]

So you actually are misleading WBF members to believe horn preference is due to mainly directional dispersion, and no other key advantages?

What happens when horn woofers have a rear wave, or downward firing bass

No, it seems you are again not able to reason, you are too busy putting false words in people mouth. I am writing posts that any one can comment or address.

I said that the basic and fundamental characteristic of horns is its typical directionality. I partially explained why. All else is connected to this aspect. Bass is considered omnidirectional, when people comment on directionality they generally address frequencies in the middle frequencies zone.

 

[bonzo75]

No, it seems you are again not able to reason, you are too busy putting false words in people mouth. I am writing posts that any one can comment or address.

I said that the basic and fundamental characteristic of horns is its typical directionality. I partially explained why. All else is connected to this aspect. Bass is considered omnidirectional, when people comment on directionality they generally address frequencies in the middle frequencies zone.

No, you were putting false ideas on the forum with your previous post that made it sound that key reason for preferring them is directivity

It is the zone from 500 Hz and below where some of the best horns have a rear wave.