State of the industry - Roy Gregory Editorial

[microstrip]

(...) regular tweeters are pretty directional too, stacked speakers (which seem to have loads of fans) are directional also, there is no black and white in directionality. Some horns are very directional, cone speakers become increasingly directional with increasing frequency. In general a challenge for horn design is directionality, there are many other challenges,...same applies for cone speakers, ribbons etc....ultimately it's all about a specific implementation.

Surely there is no black and white in audio - we can always find exceptions to any general aspect.
But when addressing directionality in general we exclude bottom and top.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I think Roy gregory could have never ever thought his article would end up like this .
82 pages of it .
There you have it Roy , see what you ve done .


Micro for goodness sake just surrender , ... buy a horn , how much are you willing to endure

 

[microstrip]

No, you were putting false ideas on the forum with your previous post that made it sound that key reason for preferring them is directivity

I did not address preference. Just the basic technical aspects that can lead to preference, not the key reason.

It is the zone from 500 Hz and below where some of the best horns have a rear wave.

You live in the exception of what you consider the best. Understandable, but not general.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Thanks. But stereo imaging strongly relies on room interference - other way we would probably prefer headphones or anechoic chambers. The ratio between direct and reflected sound is strongly a matter of preference.



I understand what you want to say, but there is no such think as fast bass or air being moved faster. But yes, sometimes bigger woofers being used in the middle zone can make the sound seem "fast". The same for the absence of real low bass.



The concept of simplicity is indeed appealing. But is was never proved that simplicity leaded to much lower loss of signal - in fact it is the opposite.

Francisco if you lived with horns you’d probably get a better sense of why some prefer them. Ked is right on the money and for me radiation pattern is just a part (perhaps a lesser part) in the range of factors that come together to shape the nature and characteristics of horns. More lifelike dynamics and especially the immediacy of the microdynamics in a horn SET coupling and a sense of coherency (here especially with a two way first order crossover) builds to give them their characteristic differences in comparison to other types of speaker approaches. That said all the various speakers types bring their own strengths, weaknesses, potentials and constraints to the mix.

 

[MarcelNL]

when I wrote that there is no black or white I did not mean that there are 'a few exceptions to any general aspect' or I would have written that most horn are highly directional but there are exceptions. I did not mention any particular part of the total bandwidth nor did you.
Some horns are more directional than others, to say that but for a few exceptions all are highly directional is hogwash.
If we, just for arguments sake, decide that 'we always exclude all other cone speakers than arrays' the argument that cone speakers are highly directional becomes true. There are solutions to the characteristics if many speaker systems, if you hear a speaker with incomplete or unsuccesful implementation that does not mean that the concept is wrong.

Let's go back to the original CD player, all 14 bits of sound, how does that compare to something like a Taiko Extreme? Implementation is everything, how's that for a motto ?

 

[andromedaaudio]

So you actually are misleading WBF members to believe horn preference is due to mainly

IQ i would say

 

[PeterA]

No, it seems you are again not able to reason, you are too busy putting false words in people mouth. I am writing posts that any one can comment or address.

I said that the basic and fundamental characteristic of horns is its typical directionality. I partially explained why. All else is connected to this aspect. Bass is considered omnidirectional, when people comment on directionality they generally address frequencies in the middle frequencies zone.

I would actually say that the basic and fundamental characteristic of horns is their ability to amplify the output of the driver. This usually results in less movement and thus lower distortion and a more efficient and easier to drive speaker load for the amplifiers allowing one to avoid high powered solid-state amplification.

 

[microstrip]

Francisco if you lived with horns you’d probably get a better sense of why some prefer them. Ked is right on the money and for me radiation pattern is just a part (perhaps a lesser part) in the range of factors that come together to shape the nature and characteristics of horns. More lifelike dynamics and especially the immediacy of the microdynamics in a horn SET coupling and a sense of coherency (here especially with a two way first order crossover) builds to give them their characteristic differences in comparison to other types of speaker approaches. That said all the various speakers types bring their own strengths, weaknesses, potentials and constraints to the mix.

Where do horns get their efficiency from? From their directionality. You would not have the typical sound of horns without the guided waves.

I have listened to horns several times - Avantgarde in good conditions, others only in shows or demos. What is immediately evident is the characteristic relative absence of reflected sound compared to other speakers. If we have doubts we can look at graphs.

Nowadays the coherency of horns is also a consequence of the matched directionality of the several units - harder to control adequately in other types of speakers.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Guys , i have come out of the closet , deep down in my hart i was always a horn lover i was just afraid to say it publicly
I have had a pair of horns in the basement all along .

Now that ive said it in public how many people do i have to convert to become a full club member

 

[microstrip]

I would actually say that the basic and fundamental characteristic of horns is their ability to amplify the output of the driver. This usually results in less movement and thus lower distortion and a more efficient and easier to drive speaker load for the amplifiers allowing one to avoid high powered solid-state amplification.

Peter, thanks for supporting my point. Please see my post above.

 

[PeterA]

Surely there is no black and white in audio - we can always find exceptions to any general aspect.
But when addressing directionality in general we exclude bottom and top.

Why then does speaker toe-in so dramatically affect the sound? I never enjoyed my Magico tweeters beaming at my head.

 

[Al M.]

What is immediately evident is the characteristic relative absence of reflected sound compared to other speakers.

How does that manifest itself sonically?

 

[wil]

You didn't watch the video he spoke specifically about the current state of digital and hi rez and how bad it sounds!

david

I'm glad you found someone on YouTube who shares your narrative.

I'm comfortable basing my sound quality judgements on what I hear every day. But, I can't help but wonder why some vinyl lovers feel compelled to prop up their opinions of the superiority of vinyl by stating, over and over, and at every opportunity, their opinion of the inferiority of digital playback.

 

[PeterA]

Peter, thanks for supporting my point. Please see my post above.

No, you changed your point when multiple people challenged you.

 

[microstrip]

Why then does speaker toe-in so dramatically affect the sound? I never enjoyed my Magico tweeters beaming at my head.

Speaker toe-in? Who is addressing speaker toe-in?

 

[andromedaaudio]

Why then does speaker toe-in so dramatically affect the sound? I never enjoyed my Magico tweeters beaming at my head.

Because not all magico models leave the factory with the same freq balance

Here is the Q 5 which probably had a lot in common with the Q 3 balance see that bump at 10 khz, because you dont wanna hear that you turn your tw outwards




A 5

 

[microstrip]

No, you changed your point when multiple people challenged you.

No, I did not change a comma. I asked before and explained briefly. Do you know the basic reason why horns are efficient?

 

[MarcelNL]

Where do horns get their efficiency from? From their directionality. You would not have the typical sound of horns without the guided waves.

I have listened to horns several times - Avantgarde in good conditions, others only in shows or demos. What is immediately evident is the characteristic relative absence of reflected sound compared to other speakers. If we have doubts we can look at graphs.

Nowadays the coherency of horns is also a consequence of the matched directionality of the several units - harder to control adequately in other types of speakers.

Did you read the paper I posted a link to? First page, 'purpose of a horn'...A horn can be used for directionality (think of the stadium speakers of yesterday) Key aspect here is loading of the driver, a much more efficient way of making air move leading to less distortion in the cone (just look at cone distortions at minimal excursion vs that at Xmax?)
Second page handles directionality

Executive Summary:
-Horns can be made to be directional
-Horns are efficient impedance transformers
-all cone speakers are increasingly directional with incrreasing frequency
-horn shape matters

I suspect you are confusing a design flaw for a characteristic.

 

[PeterA]

Because not all magico models leave the factory with the same freq balance

Here is the Q 5 which probably had a lot in common with the Q 3 balance see that bump at 10 khz, because you dont wanna hear that you turn your tw outwards

View attachment 92641


A 5

Those are different speakers from mine, and they measure differently. Toe-in makes a big difference in Al M’s and Madfloyd’s rooms to, as it did with the Wilson speakers I’ve heard. All of this tells me that some of these other speakers are directional also. Set up matters a lot.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Those are different speakers from mine, and they measure differently. Toe-in makes a big difference in Al M’s and Madfloyd’s rooms to, as it did with the Wilson speakers I’ve heard. All of this tells me that some of these other speakers are directional also. Set up matters a lot.

Sure it matters , you have a HF roll off automatically when you turn your tweeters front firing .
If a speaker posseses HF roll of on axis it can become to dull with front firing tw s .

I always liked the in room balance of the V3 with more or less a 3 db roll off