State of the industry - Roy Gregory Editorial

[Al M.]

We all hear differently

That's the crux of the matter, isn't it? It's entertaining to see the passion of people trying to convince each other of their approach under the implied premise that everyone really hears the same way, and that it's just lack of exposure to the "right stuff" that makes people choose the "wrong approach".

 

[Al M.]

This is the real Golden Age for audiophiles!

Wholeheartedly agree.

 

[Lee]

Well if you didn't think that 2019 WE room was great it is a good thing I don't subscribe to TAS. I thought that room was phenomenal and whatever subjective etc it tells me a lot about people who don't understand that sound and the music they play

If you feel that strongly about it, don’t let that deter you from TAS. I run the business operation. My reviewers may disagree with me. If they have another room this year, I will make a point of having a longer listen this time around.

 

[Lee]

OT; there was a thread on High End 2022 at some point, I cannot find it (it's ON)

I'm sure that we all listen through our very own interpretation of what we hear, as discussed here; https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/the-language-of-reproduction-and-the-language-of-music.34242/

For me the magazines focus way too much on commercial stuff, leaving out the tinkering part and making people thing that the newest and latest and most expensivest gear is best...I understand the commercial aspects to some extent yet that should not clash with the interest of readers hoping to extend their knowledge and understanding of what makes their kit sing; once people understand that some things have a clear effect on how gear sounds they may be more willing to shell out money to purchase 'goodies' and upgrade.

It is sad that Art Dudley has passed. He was very much into the more boutique stuff.

But I will talk to Robert Harley and see if there are ways to address this.

 

[Lee]

Duo mezzo is one of the worst speakers around, after Wilson and Magico probably a bit better than Raidho. Altecs are fatiguing the way you set them. There are many good Altec videos in the videos thread, you can choose to visit those systems in Bulgaria or Vietnam to learn, or you could stick to the impression of the way you set them up 50 years ago.. And yes, there are many bad Altec systems around today too

We can establish we hear differently provided we have heard the same gear. In Lee's case he has heard the same WE room in Munich and doesn't like it so he and I hear differently. But you are listening to a crown driven Altec vott. I am sure it sounded awful

Bonzo,

I said the room was good but I did not feel it was great.

 

[Lee]

I still subscribe to TAS Lee. I end up reading most of it. I find much of it predictable and skip around as I read it.

I think something that is missing from print it support. I was at Marty's last week doing work. One big take away for me was the room. It really drove home the importance. But the room is really only 1 piece. Our stereo are not an Amp. A Speaker. A DAC. They are multiple components working together in an environment.

I would like to hear more about systems. What systems work in what rooms. Which are more forgiving. Which function higher when optimized. How different manufacturer or topology may compliment each other. How these systems relate to music preferences. What works well for a family environment.
And so on.

I find forum threads enjoyable as people talk about tuning their systems. The racks, footers, power etc. I feel magazines leave people wondering blindly trying this and that. Maybe that is the intent. Keep them confused and buying. Robert wrote once, or was it twice about his room. That was that. Fremer wrote about his power upgrade. I believe I saw one good explanation of setting up the digital backbone and house infrastructure to support it. But these articles are few and far between.

To me a magazine is like a brochure. I look at it a little, then toss it in the trash. If I want to know something, I go to the forums. I feel if there was meat on the bones, I might spend more time in the magazines. I probably give TAS a full hour. I probably give Whatsbest and hour or more every day.

If I were to see repeating theme in a magazine month after month, I would rather it be room optimization, equipment racking, speaker placement, power supplies, digital infrastructure, cartridge setup and so on. And I see no reason your favorite advertising partner would not be pleased, because your taking the time to set up their gear.

Rex

Rex, will try to do better in terms of discussing system approaches and spending more time on acoustics. We do a pretty good job on tweaks like footers, etc.

Thank you for your feedback.

 

[MarcelNL]

It is sad that Art Dudley has passed. He was very much into the more boutique stuff.

But I will talk to Robert Harley and see if there are ways to address this.

sounds good, I'll take you up on that (joking) but subscribing seems to have a glitch...( I used to pick up single copies of TAS but newsagents carry less and less now less folks smoke and more magazines go digital or under...)

 

[HughP3]

Crown is disaster for Altec. Though they were used in live rock show and clubs with Altec. If you didn't like them that was because 50 plus years ago you might not have been as developed on set up about your gear as you are today. Put them up properly and they will likely kill what you own today

I never said I didn’t like them otherwise I wouldn’t of posted. Please stop turning things into an argument that was not my intention

 

[microstrip]

(...) This is the real Golden Age for audiophiles!

In fact this enormous amount of great performance gear brings us a problem - choice!

There is a lot of gear I would not mind listening and trying in my system, as I feel I could built great sounding systems with them, but my time and resources are limited. Curiously, although I appreciate trying and changing equipment, I can't consider the idea of having two complete assembled systems and sharing my time between them. One system is enough (surely excluding the vintage Sonud Faber home theater in another room) .

 

[ScottB]

David, The software. I learned this from you. Records have actually gotten worse and less available with fewer new titles. Thicker deader 45 RPM vinyl “audiophile” reissues and digital based vinyl pressings. Bring back the better vinyl formulations, standard weights, and analogue recording techniques resulting in the life and ambiance heard on the originals and older pressings. I’d love to see those techniques used to make new recordings of new music. Knowledge and economics seem to stand in the way.

Unfortunately, its more than just recording technique and vinyl formulations that has changed in classical music in the post war era. With the advent of easy air travel, we have greatly reduced or lost the regional idiosyncrasies in playing and thus orchestral color that existed in the previous generation resulting is a more homogenized sound. Couple that with jet-setting conductions who no longer spend the time to develop the orchestra and producers requiring note perfect recordings for the few recordings being made, its no wonder that the state of classical recording has deteriorated. The goldern era of recordings captured a unique snapshot in time that appears unlikely that we’ll get back to anytime soon. The perfect example of this are the Ansermet recordings on Decca with the Suisse Romande. Ansermet had a lovely way with French repertory but these recordings would not be made today. It’s a sad state of affairs we find ourselves in.

 

[MarcelNL]

Unfortunately, its more than just recording technique and vinyl formulations that has changed in classical music in the post war era. With the advent of easy air travel, we have greatly reduced or lost the regional idiosyncrasies in playing and thus orchestral color that existed in the previous generation resulting is a more homogenized sound. Couple that with jet-setting conductions who no longer spend the time to develop the orchestra and producers requiring note perfect recordings for the few recordings being made, its no wonder that the state of classical recording has deteriorated. The goldern era of recordings captured a unique snapshot in time that appears unlikely that we’ll get back to anytime soon. The perfect example of this are the Ansermet recordings on Decca with the Suisse Romande. Ansermet had a lovely way with French repertory but these recordings would not be made today. It’s a sad state of affairs we find ourselves in.

please have a glance at this as there is hope; Currentzis rehearsing, I found it breathtaking and moving at the same time how much he puts into rehearsing.

 

[ddk]

Gear I like is a top studio tape machine in top condition that was used for cutting vinyl - one step closer to the source than any LP, except direct cuts.

Some designers prefer using air bearing just for the platter, blending it with a mechanical bearing supporting a low weight. They explain why and people can read it, just one of the many valid options. Anyway these people discuss and show the details about their turntable bearings, you have never shown us any photos of the bearing of the AS2000 or its details - some thing I respect - but prevents any discussion on it.

Choosing a bearing type is only the start and since nothing is absolutely neutral how one handles the consequences of that decision is what matters. A lot of those explanations as my dear friend Vladimir Lamm likes to say is nothing more than "Bulah Bulah" Romy's website is all about such discussions , it's just not my thing Francisco. The bearing choice and design here has to do with AS2000's minimalist approach and absolute lack of dampening so it had to be as quiet and vibration free as possible. The non dampened minimalist approach is also the driving principle behind the Nothing racks.This doesn't mean that there's no resonance or energy to deal with just that they're mitigated for the most part without the use of dampening that by definition will steal some or a lot of this precious resonance and also not without transformation and introducing of new ones either. This is a discussion for another time and another thread.

I had the same idea as you when I read about the optical cartridge first time, only later I realized it is really a revolutionary device as it suppresses any kind of counter electromagnetic force between the cantilever and the cartridge body. Considering that these forces are highly non linear, I consider it a fantastic achievement. But surely some people can tell us that light is not natural in stereo!

There's only one design really and what I heard was sonically natural and impressive but not more than any other high quality cartridge to justify the limitation of the phono box, that's why I don't own one.

david

 

[microstrip]

Choosing a bearing type is only the start and since nothing is absolutely neutral how one handles the consequences of that decision is what matters. A lot of those explanations as my dear friend Vladimir Lamm likes to say is nothing more than "Bulah Bulah" Romy's website is all about such discussions , it's just not my thing Francisco. The bearing choice and design here has to do with AS2000's minimalist approach and absolute lack of dampening so it had to be as quiet and vibration free as possible. The non dampened minimalist approach is also the driving principle behind the Nothing racks.This doesn't mean that there's no resonance or energy to deal with just that they're mitigated for the most part without the use of dampening that by definition will steal some or a lot of this precious resonance and also not without transformation and introducing of new ones either. This is a discussion for another time and another thread.

A pity you had to compare designers interesting and enlightening discussions and articles with a poisonous audio site and bring Vladimir Lamm to the bearing subject. You had many years and occasions to show and discuss the bearing, unfortunately I think it is now an outdated subject.

There's only one design really and what I heard was sonically natural and impressive but not more than any other high quality cartridge to justify the limitation of the phono box, that's why I don't own one.

david

Perhaps some time in the future we will have a tube phono box!

 

[ddk]

3D printing most definitely improves tonearm design. It removes resonances,

Another example I gave was Franc Kuzma's use of sapphire in his new tonearm for the same reason of removing resonances.

It's not by any stretch, "the same old technology."

You're confused by material choices Lee there's no change of design fundamentals the tonearm is still a pipe with a bearing and an interface for the cartridge that functions exactly the same passing an electric signal down the wire to a phono preamp. FYI synthetic gem bearings are centuries old and bakelite was used long time ago for the same purpose of resonance control. You wouldn't be able to play old and new records on any type of player if there was a fundamental change. Try playing a DVD on a Laser Disc machine or vice versa you'll understand what is meant by fundamental changes. Both are optical discs read by lasers but laser disc players used analog video DVD is all digital, that's a fundamental change of parameters but the actual concept of optical discs for both is 60's tech.

david

 

[bonzo75]

In fact this enormous amount of great performance gear brings us a problem - choice!

You have a lot of choice in music too. Did you restrict yourself to modern or consider it better than classical?

Do you eat only modem recipes and avoid traditional ones?

You can choose between what you have experienced and what you haven't, let's not confuse it with old vs modern. For you Western electric should be the same as M9, you haven't heard both. At least you have heard some Magico.

A New dish is what you haven't experienced, not what was made later

 

[Lee]

You're confused by material choices Lee there's no change of design fundamentals the tonearm is still a pipe with a bearing and an interface for the cartridge that functions exactly the same passing an electric signal down the wire to a phono preamp. FYI synthetic gem bearings are centuries old and bakelite was used long time ago for the same purpose of resonance control. You wouldn't be able to play old and new records on any type of player if there was a fundamental change. Try playing a DVD on a Laser Disc machine or vice versa you'll understand what is meant by fundamental changes. Both are optical discs read by lasers but laser disc players used analog video DVD is all digital, that's a fundamental change of parameters but the actual concept of optical discs for both is 60's tech.

david

These new materials impact performance however, so it is germane to the conversation.

Sound quality has improved because these refinements, based on new technology, have enabled more precision. They can be incremental in nature but in aggregate are huge factors.

 

[PeterA]

This is the real Golden Age for audiophiles!

It’s a sad state of affairs we find ourselves in.

Two quotes taken out of context, but it does seem to sum up the current state of our hobby. We audiophiles can not seem to agree. Of course Lee is mostly talking about gear, and Scott is talking about classical recordings, but the thread discussion is in large part about whether or not sound reproduction has improved. We can agree that in terms of convenience and access, and perhaps footprint, what is now is better than what was. But, I would like to think that sound quality drives the hobby. Mr Gregory discusses how the industry works with advertising and the magazines and the barriers encountered by the little guys and the distribution models, and the escalating prices. But another critical point of article is the advancement of sound. In the second paragraph Mr. Gregory's writes this:

"Look back ten years and, with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, I believe that it’s fair to say standards of audio performance have stagnated. Products have got bigger and so have their price tags, but where are the compelling, breakthrough performers, the great leaps forward in musical performance. They’re there – but you have to search for them, buried amongst the mountains of same-old, same old from the same old faces. That’s the nub of the problem in a nutshell."

Perhaps this is the crux of the matter. Manufacturers need to sell new stuff. Magazines need to pay their writers. A dwindling group of audiophiles keep buying new gear to support this, but they are fewer and fewer and prices keep going up and up. Rex and many others come to forums to learn, and the manufacturers are following with their ad dollars. In the end, content is what matters, and the content seems to be in places like WBF. The cool thing is that here we discuss what is really happening, at least at a high level of audio. People are tinkering and experimenting and sharing what they are doing. Some are buying the latest gear and sharing that. Manufacturers are launching flagships at customers' homes and the owner starts a thread. Still others are buying used and vintage and actually finding it sounds different, as good, and perhaps even better. The Golden Age is correct if one means choices to the hobbyist. If means the state of the industry, analog recordings, pricing, physical demos and dealer set ups, things get sadder.

Lee and David are having what I think is a pretty interesting exchange about what Mr. Gregory writes above. Bonzo shares DIY horn and vintage system videos. They sound great. Where are the videos of contemporary systems for comparison? Jay posts them on YouTube for us to make our own judgements. Forums and videos are gaining viewers. I can't say where the industry is going, but Karen Sumner the manufacturer and Tima the reviewer are asking about the language we use to describe what we hear. Things are changing within the industry I learned about twenty years ago, and I find it refreshing.

I think Mr. Gregory's comment about actual progress in sound is critical to this whole discussion. Are Magico/Wilson speakers better than FYNE or some other current designs? Are they better than Altec VOTT or those Mitsubishi Diatone speakers I heard in Utah, or the vintage JBL Hartfield's or Tannoys? Corner horns were high performing lifestyle type speakers placed in family living rooms, not dedicated listening rooms. This is the relative question, because if the new is only different, or about the same, or even worse, what is going on and why? People choose what they prefer, and there are a lot of hobbyists who build DIY horns and restore vintage turntables who just don't seem to like the way much of the new stuff sounds, or it sounds fine but is too expensive.

SME just announced a new flagship turntable, the Model 60. Fremer posted an excellent video tour of the factory and interviews with employees. The manufacturing capabilities seem superb and the table looks very well made. I suspect there will be a review and some advertising, and perhaps some chat on forums from those few who can afford this table. What I wonder is whether or not this new table, with it's new arm and all the modern technology advancements so well described, playing a Lyra Atlas Lambda cartridge will actually sound better than a vintage Micro Seiki with a vintage SME 3012R tonearm playing a nice Neumann cartridge. Both companies were/are machine shops that designed a turntable, and SME has survived and grown. After all these years, is the new one necessarily better sounding, just different or actually not as good? Would there be a consensus, or some preferring either one over the other? This is What's Best Forum where some members own the best, and Mr. Gregory and TAS review the current state of the art. What would happen if people actually compared the best of the past with the best of the present? Is Roy Gregory's comment about audio performance stagnating, correct?

 

[Lee]

Two quotes taken out of context, but it does seem to sum up the current state of our hobby. We audiophiles can not seem to agree. Of course Lee is mostly talking about gear, and Scott is talking about classical recordings, but the thread discussion is in large part about whether or not sound reproduction has improved. We can agree that in terms of convenience and access, and perhaps footprint, what is now is better than what was. But, I would like to think that sound quality drives the hobby. Mr Gregory discusses how the industry works with advertising and the magazines and the barriers encountered by the little guys and the distribution models, and the escalating prices. But another critical point of article is the advancement of sound. In the second paragraph Mr. Gregory's writes this:

"Look back ten years and, with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, I believe that it’s fair to say standards of audio performance have stagnated. Products have got bigger and so have their price tags, but where are the compelling, breakthrough performers, the great leaps forward in musical performance. They’re there – but you have to search for them, buried amongst the mountains of same-old, same old from the same old faces. That’s the nub of the problem in a nutshell."

Perhaps this is the crux of the matter. Manufacturers need to sell new stuff. Magazines need to pay their writers. A dwindling group of audiophiles keep buying new gear to support this, but they are fewer and fewer and prices keep going up and up. Rex and many others come to forums to learn, and the manufacturers are following with their ad dollars. In the end, content is what matters, and the content seems to be in places like WBF. The cool thing is that here we discuss what is really happening, at least at a high level of audio. People are tinkering and experimenting and sharing what they are doing. Some are buying the latest gear and sharing that. Manufacturers are launching flagships at customers' homes and the owner starts a thread. Still others are buying used and vintage and actually finding it sounds different, as good, and perhaps even better. The Golden Age is correct if one means choices to the hobbyist. If means the state of the industry, analog recordings, pricing, physical demos and dealer set ups, things get sadder.

Lee and David are having what I think is a pretty interesting exchange about what Mr. Gregory writes above. Bonzo shares DIY horn and vintage system videos. They sound great. Where are the videos of contemporary systems for comparison? Jay posts them on YouTube for us to make our own judgements. Forums and videos are gaining viewers. I can't say where the industry is going, but Karen Sumner the manufacturer and Tima the reviewer are asking about the language we use to describe what we hear. Things are changing within the industry I learned about twenty years ago, and I find it refreshing.

I think Mr. Gregory's comment about actual progress in sound is critical to this whole discussion. Are Magico/Wilson speakers better than FYNE or some other current designs? Are they better than Altec VOTT or those Mitsubishi Diatone speakers I heard in Utah, or the vintage JBL Hartfield's or Tannoys? Corner horns were high performing lifestyle type speakers placed in family living rooms, not dedicated listening rooms. This is the relative question, because if the new is only different, or about the same, or even worse, what is going on and why? People choose what they prefer, and there are a lot of hobbyists who build DIY horns and restore vintage turntables who just don't seem to like the way much of the new stuff sounds, or it sounds fine but is too expensive.

SME just announced a new flagship turntable, the Model 60. Fremer posted an excellent video tour of the factory and interviews with employees. The manufacturing capabilities seem superb and the table looks very well made. I suspect there will be a review and some advertising, and perhaps some chat on forums from those few who can afford this table. What I wonder is whether or not this new table, with it's new arm and all the modern technology advancements so well described, playing a Lyra Atlas Lambda cartridge will actually sound better than a vintage Micro Seiki with a vintage SME 3012R tonearm playing a nice Neumann cartridge. Both companies were/are machine shops that designed a turntable, and SME has survived and grown. After all these years, is the new one necessarily better sounding, just different or actually not as good? Would there be a consensus, or some preferring either one over the other? This is What's Best Forum where some members own the best, and Mr. Gregory and TAS review the current state of the art. What would happen if people actually compared the best of the past with the best of the present? Is Roy Gregory's comment about audio performance stagnating, correct?

Excellent post as usual Peter.

I think ScottB and I might share more common ground than you think. I'm a bit of a purist when it comes to recordings and if Scott is saying we have drifted away from the better techniques of recording with fewer mics and fewer channels then I will be the first to buy him a beer at AXPONA.

Maybe I'm wrong but I do think the Golden Age is now. The quality of sound we are getting is tremendous and, perhaps most important, the younger people joining our hobby enjoy FAR better results with the affordable gear that is out there.

 

[Lee]

"Look back ten years and, with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, I believe that it’s fair to say standards of audio performance have stagnated. Products have got bigger and so have their price tags, but where are the compelling, breakthrough performers, the great leaps forward in musical performance. They’re there – but you have to search for them, buried amongst the mountains of same-old, same old from the same old faces. That’s the nub of the problem in a nutshell."

This is provably false imho. The same old would presumably include Magico and Wilson. How does one say with a straight face that the A5s are not a big improvement? How does one say the XVX Chronosonic or WAMM are not a big improvement? How does one say the APEX products from dCS are not a step forward from the non-APEX versions?

I think we need to be realistic here.

 

[bonzo75]

the younger people joining our hobby enjoy FAR better results with the affordable gear that is out there.

Younger people will enjoy far better results with restored vintage, because there are very low distribution and marketing margins involved. The cost of modern high end is more due to the mark ups involved.

Unfortunately the young audiophile has to go through the curve of cheap, expensive, shows, magazines, before gaining experience and understanding the price quality modern vintage spectrum