State of the industry - Roy Gregory Editorial

[MarcelNL]

Unfortunately I do not see not such a thing as a restored vintage quality market of reasonable relevance. IMHO restored vintage is mostly a DIY affair, that needs a lot of time and some expertise.

Do you have a list of sites of people selling quality restored vintage with prices?

You can try hifishark, entering search strings like Western electric, Klangfilm and more to get a feel for the territory..

 

[PeterA]

Peter,

Good summary post, but I ask the inconvenient but critical question. What are you exactly meaning by "actually sound better"?

The one most people prefer? The one that sounds closer to the master tape? The one that cancels pops and clicks more effectively? Just the one that reminds us more of the last concert we went?

IMHO some people are obsessed by ranking and forget about the true objective of the high-end - getting from stereo more than usual for individual enjoyment of listeners. Asking some one to tell which of these turntables sounds better is meaningless unless you want carry a poll on preference.

Hello Fransisco,

I am sure the people at SME care what people think about the sound of their new flagship creation. Individual opinion is far from meaningless when creating and selling a product, but I presume companies hope for some kind of consensus. I am not obsessed by ranking but more interested in exploring the comment by Mr. Gregory about industry performance stagnation and Lee's posts about new technologies marching forward resulting in improved sound quality. I presume these are both just individual opinions and not facts, but this thread discussion may be some indication of how others feel and whether or not they, and then others more broadly feel one way or the other.

To answer that general question, with this specific example of two turntables, a consensus from a variety of listeners hearing both together would carry some weight. More broadly, we can just look at the many people who for whatever reason are still tinkering, experimenting, building DIY, buying vintage systems, all for a variety of reasons, and we can look at the growth in sales of the new stuff.

To answer your specific question, an individual listener comparing the two turntables directly will likely decided which sounds better using his own criteria. I will not dictate what that criteria should be. He listens and he chooses. Personally, I would choose the one that sounds most natural in the given system/room context based on my reference of live unamplified music, but that is just me. Pops and clicks are not a big issue for me, nor is what sounds closer to the master tape because I can't make that compare. I want the experience of listening to the record to approach the experience of listening live in the concert hall.

I asked which "actually sounds better" which I had thought was a pretty straight forward question. I was not expecting a professor to analyze the meaning of the question and debate it. Thank you for giving me a chance to clarify the question for those like you who did not understand what "sounds better" means.

 

[Lee]

Not a good example Lee, cosmetics aside there's hardly any daylight between the original MS and the AF variant design wise.
Sure better parts can sometimes lead to better sound but not alway and we weren't discussing SQ, we're too far apart on that for a starting point.

david

Again David, I felt we were discussing sound quality. Roy was discussing it in his article. That seems to be the prime goal in high end audio.

 

[bonzo75]

What I don't understand is an audiophile should be gear curious, by definition. Otherwise he wouldn't be in the hobby, going to shows, reading mags and forums, exchanging notes, etc.

Do people want to go through the audiophile career just having understood one aspect? Digital people should understand analog and vice versa. Deeply. SETs aficionados should spend more time with SS and vice versa. Everyone gets exposure to current, few get exposure to vintage as well as many cottage built products (as it is hardly distributed or advertised).

 

[PeterA]

Hmm, I'm not sure I made any claim about POS gear above. You have an Air Force 1 in Listening Room 1. That table evolved with many refinements from Nishikawa's experience with Micro-Seiki. My point is that the execution and evolution and better parts quality has led to better sound today. That's really all I am saying.

Lee, Some people have likely compared the sound of the Air Force 1 and the last big Micro Seikis. They might not agree with your assessment. Granted, the AF1 is new and more complicated and did evolve from earlier designs, but does it actually sound more natural? I thought the Magico Mini II sounded more natural than the later Q1, and that the Q3 sounded more natural than the later S5.

 

[Jmn]

Mike, (and all others) I am currently listening to Quintetto No.4 In Re Maggiore “Fandango” Per Corda e Chitarra(G. 448): Grave Assai - Fandango (Boccherini) as you recommended, and I must say the following:

This is my first public post ever, on What’s Best Forum and with my new Wadax now properly integrated into my system, I feel I now have a certain degree of rank to be able to share my comments.

Mike, I could not agree with you more! What a fantastic recording! So rich, layered and emotion-driven. The MusIC2 chip is nothing short of genius, a technological work of art. I’m not certain as to how this recording plays through other DACs but as you said, it truly is, “a dream listen on the Wadax” and although, I don’t have the Atlantis Reference, I can find absolutely no faults, no minuses at all while playing through my ‘slightly more humble‘ Wadax.

Thanks for the great recommendation and it would be interesting to site other recording which excell through the MusIC chip, perhaps on another thread.

As for Roy, I respect his sensibilities when it comes to reviewing and internalizing the state of High End audio and I have made purchases based upon his reviews. What I like about GY8 is the absence of advertisements which often are overwhelming and somewhat suspect to bias. Yes, I know his history and that his wife too has affiliations with certain brands within the industry, but it is refreshing to read through GY8 and his ability to convey his experience.

It has a certain degree of independence, much like when Robert Parker Jr. started The Wine Advocate many years ago. It was just words printed on paper, with nothing more, just stapled together, and you could subscribe for a modest fee, if you wanted to. Review after review from a man who understood how to look at, smell and taste a wine on so many levels and then describe and relay, simply through adjectives which would very accurately describe the experience to his readers. It’s independence from wine industry advertising, gave us a fresh perspective, from other wine reviewers in magazines (flanked with advertisements) and thus gave more confidence in reading about how a wine tastes without the reader seeing an advertisement for that very wine as we turned from one page to the next.

And when it comes to describing the details of sound and the nuances of music through any given component, there are strikingly analogous terminologies to wine tasting, albeit for our ears, not our noses and tastebuds, but ultimately it is all about our hedonism, as Mr. Parker so unabashedly advocated.

We should all be able trust our reviewers, knowing bias is absent.

 

[gleeds]

Mike, (and all others) I am currently listening to Quintetto No.4 In Re Maggiore “Fandango” Per Corda e Chitarra(G. 448): Grave Assai - Fandango (Boccherini) as you recommended, and I must say the following:

This is my first public post ever, on What’s Best Forum and with my new Wadax now properly integrated into my system, I feel I now have a certain degree of rank to be able to share my comments.

Mike, I could not agree with you more! What a fantastic recording! So rich, layered and emotion-driven. The MusIC2 chip is nothing short of genius, a technological work of art. I’m not certain as to how this recording plays through other DACs but as you said, it truly is, “a dream listen on the Wadax” and although, I don’t have the Atlantis Reference, I can find absolutely no faults, no minuses at all while playing through my ‘slightly more humble‘ Wadax.

Thanks for the great recommendation and it would be interesting to site other recording which excell through the MusIC chip, perhaps on another thread.

As for Roy, I respect his sensibilities when it comes to reviewing and internalizing the state of High End audio and I have made purchases based upon his reviews. What I like about GY8 is the absence of advertisements which often are overwhelming and somewhat suspect to bias. Yes, I know his history and that his wife too has affiliations with certain brands within the industry, but it is refreshing to read through GY8 and his ability to convey his experience.

It has a certain degree of independence, much like when Robert Parker Jr. started The Wine Advocate many years ago. It was just words printed on paper, with nothing more, just stapled together, and you could subscribe for a modest fee, if you wanted to. Review after review from a man who understood how to look at, smell and taste a wine on so many levels and then describe and relay, simply through adjectives which would very accurately describe the experience to his readers. It’s independence from wine industry advertising, gave us a fresh perspective, from other wine reviewers in magazines (flanked with advertisements) and thus gave more confidence in reading about how a wine tastes without the reader seeing an advertisement for that very wine as we turned from one page to the next.

And when it comes to describing the details of sound and the nuances of music through any given component, there are strikingly analogous terminologies to wine tasting, albeit for our ears, not our noses and tastebuds, but ultimately it is all about our hedonism, as Mr. Parker so unabashedly advocated.

We should all be able trust our reviewers, knowing bias is absent.

Welcome to WBF and congratulations on your Wadax purchase!

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Interesting, Mike. This is all quite different from my understanding.

Yes, I take high-end audio quite seriously but I also see much humor in it. For example. I got a pretty good chuckle reading microstrip’s praise of your many contributions here as an enthusiast, even suggesting that WBF thank you for your contributions.

Correct me if I’m wrong but I get the impression you’ve not fully or perhaps not even partially disclosed any of your audio business affiliations and associated financial investments. Including but not limited to your potential involvement with the Evolution Acoustics speakers from womb to tomb which seems to also be in sharp contrast to your response above. For example. Is it not true during the first 4 years of prototyping the Evolution Acoustics speakers you travelled to Portland perhaps every time there was a significant project advancement and even met with the original designer during some of those trips / auditions?

If you have disclosed your business endeavors, my apologies. If you haven’t, are we not obligated to disclose all such business endeavors in our signatures for all to plainly see so as to more easily discern enthusiasts from those with vested interests?

my wife wishes i was in the audio business. you are free to ask her about it. she has a hard time understanding the people i constantly host in my room but don't get any income from it. but i'm in the car business, and hifi has only been my hobby and my escape from the stress of all that. lots of people have approached me about getting involved. never happened on any level. nothing to disclose.

i've always been around new developments; back when Jonathan had me listen to his prototype it was because i owned the big Kharma's and he wanted my opinion. we were good friends. later he had me listen to the prototype darTZeel preamp. then later i had the prototype dart mono blocks for awhile. my room was a testing spot. other manufacturers also brought things over from time to time. this week a dealer friend (i've never done business with) has offered me a product to listen to. he wants my opinion. looking forward to it.

a room like mine does get to see some new stuff sometimes. Joel Durand was a listening friend before he built his first tone arm. then early on he tested his new designs in my room.

one friend brought tapes over to my room he had purchased in large collections multiple times to see whether they were better than my vinyl version to see if he could sell them. i bought the best ones.

many audiophiles have their rooms used for prototypes and new products; i'm certainly not alone about that.

 

[Lagonda]

Gear I like is a top studio tape machine in top condition that was used for cutting vinyl - one step closer to the source than any LP, except direct cuts.



Some designers prefer using air bearing just for the platter, blending it with a mechanical bearing supporting a low weight. They explain why and people can read it, just one of the many valid options. Anyway these people discuss and show the details about their turntable bearings, you have never shown us any photos of the bearing of the AS2000 or its details - some thing I respect - but prevents any discussion on it.

I would be surprised if the bearing did not look a lot like the one in Peters Micro Seiki !

 

[ddk]

Again David, I felt we were discussing sound quality. Roy was discussing it in his article. That seems to be the prime goal in high end audio.

How many times I need to repeat that we’re not discussing sound quality nor was it relevant from your first reply to my post? Prime goal or not it has nothing to with what I was discussing.

david

 

[microstrip]

I know, you were just looking to bitch about my response when you already knew that I didn't discuss it because I don't want to share it!

I do not mind and accept that you do not share the details, however I find curious that you have strong opinions on those who share using their information and hide behind the secrecy. Just MHO.

Details matter but that doesn't mean innovation in and of itself. We need to define innovation if end result is worse or no better than what it's supposed to surpass.

Most of us consider the result is better most of time, surely not always . It is also statistical opinion.

Or the cactus needle you can still play records with it, but that was my whole point in principle record playback hasn't changed.

Wasn't the first recording French from mid 1800s?

Yes, but not created with intention of being played. It was played only in the XXI century using digital analysis on the phonoautographs. Although the original recording instrument had a bearing, the playback was carried from a flat scanner!

I didn't know about this one, certainly interesting!

david

We can see it at https://www.bonavolta.ch/hobby/en/audio/td_hg.htm

I read about if first time in "L´audiophile" and considered building it, but using four synchronous motors. But it needed a lot of mercury.

 

[gleeds]

my wife wishes i was in the audio business. you are free to ask her about it. she has a hard time understanding the people i constantly host in my room but don't get any income from it. but i'm in the car business, and hifi has only been my hobby and my escape from the stress of all that. lots of people have approached me about getting involved. never happened on any level. nothing to disclose.

i've always been around new developments; back when Jonathan had me listen to his prototype it was because i owned the big Kharma's and he wanted my opinion. we were good friends. later he had me listen to the prototype darTZeel preamp. then later i had the prototype dart mono blocks for awhile. my room was a testing spot. other manufacturers also brought things over from time to time. this week a dealer friend (i've never done business with) has offered me a product to listen to. he wants my opinion. looking forward to it.

a room like mine does get to see some new stuff sometimes. Joel Durand was a listening friend before he built his first tone arm. then early on he tested his new designs in my room.

one friend brought tapes over to my room he had purchased in large collections multiple times to see whether they were better than my vinyl version to see if he could sell them. i bought the best ones.

many audiophiles have their rooms used for prototypes and new products; i'm certainly not alone about that.

Damn, I knew I would end up commenting on this thread eventually!

I have known Mike for years (as many of us have) both when I was in the business and when I was not. Mike's contribution to the WBF community is self evident. It's clear Mike buys what he loves and does not change very often. That said, he's not shy about exploring the edges of the art!

As for anyone going into the sale of high-end audio allow me to say from decades of experience making a living in this business has more than its fair share of challenges. From all appearances, selling Honda's is considerably more lucrative. Hence Mike's fortunate ability to thoroughly enjoy his hobby and finance such an amazing assemblage of ultra fine audio equipment. Lest we forget, the expense of pouring unlimited glasses of single malt whiskey to anyone who makes the journey to Chez Lavigne!

I am a dealer for Evolution Acoustics and truly appreciate their products. That said, perhaps I carry them for the free whiskey

 

[Al M.]

Maybe I'm wrong but I do think the Golden Age is now. The quality of sound we are getting is tremendous and, perhaps most important, the younger people joining our hobby enjoy FAR better results with the affordable gear that is out there.

Agreed. While prices at the top end have gone up more than ever before, this is not the whole story. Performance has gone up as well.

Not just that, I also think you can get today much more performance for the same or less money.

Two examples from my own system over the years:

1) At the time of my purchase of the Ensemble Reference speakers in 1991, these were hailed as a breakthrough in minimonitor performance, certainly in the glowing review in Stereophile, but elsewhere as well. Inflation adjusted they would cost today approx. $ 11K. Yet my current monitors,. Reference 3A Reflector, cost almost the same at $ 12K, and feature performance that is vastly superior. Heck, even my previous Reference 3A MM DeCapo BE monitors that I purchased in 2016 for $ 3K were better than the Ensemble Reference.

2) I purchased my current Schiit Yggdrasil OG DAC in 2019 for $ 2.4K, which is considerably cheaper than, inflation adjusted, my previous Wadia 12 DAC from 1994, and it is vastly better than it -- no comparison. It is also considerably better than my previous Berkeley Alpha 2 DAC that I purchased in 2013 for $ 5K.

In absolute performance, it can compete with DACs multiple the price; two friends of mine and myself all drive preamps of $ 15K and up with it, which soundwise makes complete sense for all of us, even though on paper this may be hard to believe.

Some younger people could also afford a DAC in this price range, and they would get incredible sound quality for it. Far better than from any source, digital or analog, in that price range 20 or 30 years ago.

 

[Jmn]

Thank you gleeds, Mike and Lee For the welcome.

 

[tima]

It is sad that Art Dudley has passed. He was very much into the more boutique stuff.

Yes, I had the very same thought. As a columnist he had far freer reign and the ability to go wide or narrow. Some people on this thread who want to hear about system building or 'discovery experiences' should have been his readers. Reviews are very focused (or should be - note to Serenius) and different from columns or thought pieces.

 

[howiebrou]

Hmm, I'm not sure I made any claim about POS gear above. You have an Air Force 1 in Listening Room 1. That table evolved with many refinements from Nishikawa's experience with Micro-Seiki. My point is that the execution and evolution and better parts quality has led to better sound today. That's really all I am saying.

I would humbly disagree that the AF1 sounds better than a vintage MS.

 

[KeithR]

"Look back ten years and, with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, I believe that it’s fair to say standards of audio performance have stagnated. Products have got bigger and so have their price tags, but where are the compelling, breakthrough performers, the great leaps forward in musical performance. They’re there – but you have to search for them, buried amongst the mountains of same-old, same old from the same old faces. That’s the nub of the problem in a nutshell."

This is provably false imho. The same old would presumably include Magico and Wilson. How does one say with a straight face that the A5s are not a big improvement? How does one say the XVX Chronosonic or WAMM are not a big improvement? How does one say the APEX products from dCS are not a step forward from the non-APEX versions?

I think we need to be realistic here.

There are many average Wilsons and Magicos released over the past decade. Saying a $330k and $800k loudspeaker (which even the Stereophile reviewers considered a tough pill to swallow) is where the advancement is part of the problem.

 

[ddk]

I do not mind and accept that you do not share the details, however I find curious that you have strong opinions on those who share using their information and hide behind the secrecy. Just MHO.

What does one have to do with the other?
I have opinions about things never said anything about people.
YHO is way off base!

Most of us consider the result is better most of time, surely not always . It is also statistical opinion.

Result of what? Statistics?

Yes, but not created with intention of being played. It was played only in the XXI century using digital analysis on the phonoautographs. Although the original recording instrument had a bearing, the playback was carried from a flat scanner!



We can see it at https://www.bonavolta.ch/hobby/en/audio/td_hg.htm

I read about if first time in "L´audiophile" and considered building it, but using four synchronous motors. But it needed a lot of mercury.

I saw that page thanks.

david

 

[bonzo75]

This is provably false imho. The same old would presumably include Magico and Wilson. How does one say with a straight face that the A5s are not a big improvement? How does one say the XVX Chronosonic or WAMM are not a big improvement? How does one say the APEX products from dCS are not a step forward from the non-APEX versions?

I think we need to be realistic here.

All you are saying is that the latest most expensive flagship from the likes of Wilson, Magico, and dCS is an improvement. We need to be realistic here

 

[stehno]

my wife wishes i was in the audio business. you are free to ask her about it. she has a hard time understanding the people i constantly host in my room but don't get any income from it. but i'm in the car business, and hifi has only been my hobby and my escape from the stress of all that. lots of people have approached me about getting involved. never happened on any level. nothing to disclose.

i've always been around new developments; back when Jonathan had me listen to his prototype it was because i owned the big Kharma's and he wanted my opinion. we were good friends. later he had me listen to the prototype darTZeel preamp. then later i had the prototype dart mono blocks for awhile. my room was a testing spot. other manufacturers also brought things over from time to time. this week a dealer friend (i've never done business with) has offered me a product to listen to. he wants my opinion. looking forward to it.

a room like mine does get to see some new stuff sometimes. Joel Durand was a listening friend before he built his first tone arm. then early on he tested his new designs in my room.

one friend brought tapes over to my room he had purchased in large collections multiple times to see whether they were better than my vinyl version to see if he could sell them. i bought the best ones.

many audiophiles have their rooms used for prototypes and new products; i'm certainly not alone about that.

Suit yourself, Mike.