State of the industry - Roy Gregory Editorial

[bonzo75]

I once attended leadership training at McKinsey with an amazing talk by famous classical conductor Benjamin Zander. His saying was, “everybody loves classical music, but some don’t know it yet.” I think the same is true for good sound. I was lucky, I got exposed by Mike Kay to the IRS system at Lyric. Once I heard that, there was no going back.

This is true. When non audiophile friends and family visit me in London I have taken them to classical concerts and they have loved it where the concert was good, and did not when it wasn't. I ask them to listen to a a few movements of the concert before you on youtube, twice, so that they have it in the background before they attend the concert.

I have also observed that hosts who say they are not interested in classical enjoy the music when good LPs are played. Some get converted.

 

[PeterA]

Hey Elliot,
I guess I am glad we agree on something.

Actually, I've been talking about having more transparency in the hobby for many years now and how the industry operates... the social, psychological, and economical aspects of how something becomes the "best"...

If regular people in the hobby, not 150 guys who regularly comment on this site and stupidly assume everyone else is like them, had better understanding of how things work, guys can make better decisions and not waste time - and make the most of the hobby... And guys like you, who carry smaller and newer brands, had a better chance of differentiating the products in the market place from the Wilsons, Magicos, dCSs, etc...Definitely would be a better hobby

I do too and if I could speak my mind most wouldn't agree or like what I have to say.

Elliot, I think you should speak your mind. We’re here to learn something.

 

[Elliot G.]

Elliot, I think you should speak your mind. We’re here to learn something.

Thank you Peter but this not the right forum and I do have a business to protect. I will say that there is a lot of truth in what Roy says, not all I agree with, but I have been in this business for 50 years and go back to the beginnings of TAS and Stereophile. The business model has changed dramatically and IMO not for the better.
I am not about theories or conspiracies , I have lived it. I grew up in the center of it with all the founding players. I know where the bodies are buried and who put them there. One must know where one comes from IMO to understand how we got here.
Come to Axpona and have a drink or coffee and Ill be happy to talk with you.

 

[microstrip]

Hello Fransisco,

I am sure the people at SME care what people think about the sound of their new flagship creation. Individual opinion is far from meaningless when creating and selling a product, but I presume companies hope for some kind of consensus. I am not obsessed by ranking but more interested in exploring the comment by Mr. Gregory about industry performance stagnation and Lee's posts about new technologies marching forward resulting in improved sound quality. I presume these are both just individual opinions and not facts, but this thread discussion may be some indication of how others feel and whether or not they, and then others more broadly feel one way or the other.

To answer that general question, with this specific example of two turntables, a consensus from a variety of listeners hearing both together would carry some weight. More broadly, we can just look at the many people who for whatever reason are still tinkering, experimenting, building DIY, buying vintage systems, all for a variety of reasons, and we can look at the growth in sales of the new stuff.

To answer your specific question, an individual listener comparing the two turntables directly will likely decided which sounds better using his own criteria. I will not dictate what that criteria should be. He listens and he chooses. Personally, I would choose the one that sounds most natural in the given system/room context based on my reference of live unamplified music, but that is just me. Pops and clicks are not a big issue for me, nor is what sounds closer to the master tape because I can't make that compare. I want the experience of listening to the record to approach the experience of listening live in the concert hall.

I asked which "actually sounds better" which I had thought was a pretty straight forward question. I was not expecting a professor to analyze the meaning of the question and debate it. Thank you for giving me a chance to clarify the question for those like you who did not understand what "sounds better" means.

Thanks for clarifying your point - my question was triggered because you seem to have the wrong idea of Mr. Gregory article. IMHO it is not about industry performance stagnation - on the contrary it is about manipulation to prevent that better performance existing gear sees the light, something I can't see in Europe. Mr. Gregory clearly admits a moving and energetic audio industry.

Anyway, IMHO someone who considers that digital is intrinsically an inferior format will probably consider that there is stagnation in the high-end - most progress in the area was due to influence of the digital in sound reproduction, mainly on the increase of information that can be encoded in this format. .

 

[microstrip]

I would humbly disagree that the AF1 sounds better than a vintage MS.

Surely no one can prove such thing. However the designer or both has explained the differences between them in interviews and why he considers it a positive evolution. Can you explain exactly why you think that the vintage MS (whichm BTW) sounds better than the AF1+ ?

 

[Al M.]

Anyway, IMHO someone who considers that digital is intrinsically an inferior format will probably consider that there is stagnation in the high-end.

You hit upon something here.

 

[ddk]

Surely no one can prove such thing. However the designer or both has explained the differences between them in interviews and why he considers it a positive evolution. Can you explain exactly why you think that the vintage MS (whichm BTW) sounds better than the AF1+ ?

AF1 & AF1+ are sonically identical, it's the upper platter that changes the tonality. What's there to prove Francisco people have different tastes and this is all subjective.

Anyway, IMHO someone who considers that digital is intrinsically an inferior format will probably consider that there is stagnation in the high-end - most progress in the area was due to influence of the digital in sound reproduction, mainly on the increase of information that can be encoded in this format. .

Prove it!

david

 

[PeterA]

Thanks for clarifying your point - my question was triggered because you seem to have the wrong idea of Mr. Gregory article. IMHO it is not about industry performance stagnation - on the contrary it is about manipulation to prevent that better performance existing gear sees the light, something I can't see in Europe. Mr. Gregory clearly admits a moving and energetic audio industry.

Anyway, IMHO someone who considers that digital is intrinsically an inferior format will probably consider that there is stagnation in the high-end - most progress in the area was due to influence of the digital in sound reproduction, mainly on the increase of information that can be encoded in this format. .

Francisco, I quoted Mr. Gregorys second paragraph which clearly states that he thinks that performance has stagnated. I acknowledge that his article is about other things as well regarding the distribution model and the comfortable relationship between manufacturers and the reviewer‘s. It would be great to have more exposure to new products but I’m not hearing anyone discuss how that’s going to be achieved.

I see examples of in-home trials and return policies and direct sales from manufacturers. There have been quiet examples of this happening for years with expensive products. Deals for friends. There are also influencers who do the marketing that used to be done in magazines. Forums create free buzz in manufacturers and dealers are taking full advantage of that in places like WBF. The word is getting out about gear, the question is how to get it from the factory to the hobbyist, and how does it get set up and serviced.

Interested forces are finding a way to make all this work, and the old models are being challenged. I just wish some of the great sounding stuff of the past which still sounds as good or better than what is being made now was more readily available.

 

[microstrip]

AF1 & AF1+ are sonically identical, it's the upper platter that changes the tonality. What's there to prove Francisco people have different tastes and this is all subjective.

Well known that the upper platter changes the tonalty - we could have it in the AF1. I just asked a question to Howie - we debate our opinions and reasons for them in this forum.

There are differences in the redesigned new electronic motor controller of the AF1+ reported to affect the performance of the motor, I could not compare if they cause any difference in sound quality, as we do not keep both working when upgrading.

Prove it!

david

Such subjective findings and opinions have no proof. Some people will agree, others will disagree, and we can discuss it.

 

[ddk]

Well known that the upper platter changes the tonalty - we could have it in the AF1. I just asked a question to Howie - we debate our opinions and reasons for them in this forum.

There are differences in the redesigned new electronic motor controller of the AF1+ reported to affect the performance of the motor, I could not compare if they cause any difference in sound quality, as we do not keep both working when upgrading.

My AF1's motor controller and feet bladders were upgraded to the recent AF1+ specs. Some minor improvements are noted but nothing intrinsically important.

Such subjective findings and opinions have no proof. Some people will agree, others will disagree, and we can discuss it.

Exactly my point!

david

 

[microstrip]

My AF1's motor controller and feet bladders were upgraded to the recent AF1+ specs. Some minor improvements are noted but nothing intrinsically important.

Thanks. I read "Some minor improvements are noted but nothing intrinsically important in David system.

 

[microstrip]

Francisco, I quoted Mr. Gregorys second paragraph which clearly states that he thinks that performance has stagnated.

No, IMHO not at all. Please read again. He says that we could believe that the industry has been stagnating for 10 years because the old boys were dwarfing the gear that displayed real improvements. And in the last two years the always existing innovation that was being kept oppressed managed to reach the surface. I think you failed to understand the cause Mr. Gregory was promoting.

I quote him :"Quite the contrary. In both cases, the performance, the innovative approaches and technology have been there from the start – it’s just that they never received the attention or prominence they deserved."

 

[Lagonda]

No, IMHO not at all. Please read again. He says that we could believe that the industry has been stagnating for 10 years because the old boys were dwarfing the gear that displayed real improvements. And in the last two years the always existing innovation that was being kept oppressed managed to reach the surface. I think you failed to understand the cause Mr. Gregory was promoting.

I quote him :"Quite the contrary. In both cases, the performance, the innovative approaches and technology have been there from the start – it’s just that they never received the attention or prominence they deserved."

And then he mentions Wadax and CH precision ! Probably the reason Elliot brought this article to our attention in the first place. Oh what a complicated web we all weave !

 

[Sampajanna]

I still subscribe to TAS Lee. I end up reading most of it. I find much of it predictable and skip around as I read it.

I think something that is missing from print it support. I was at Marty's last week doing work. One big take away for me was the room. It really drove home the importance. But the room is really only 1 piece. Our stereo are not an Amp. A Speaker. A DAC. They are multiple components working together in an environment.

I would like to hear more about systems. What systems work in what rooms. Which are more forgiving. Which function higher when optimized. How different manufacturer or topology may compliment each other. How these systems relate to music preferences. What works well for a family environment.
And so on.

I find forum threads enjoyable as people talk about tuning their systems. The racks, footers, power etc. I feel magazines leave people wondering blindly trying this and that. Maybe that is the intent. Keep them confused and buying. Robert wrote once, or was it twice about his room. That was that. Fremer wrote about his power upgrade. I believe I saw one good explanation of setting up the digital backbone and house infrastructure to support it. But these articles are few and far between.

To me a magazine is like a brochure. I look at it a little, then toss it in the trash. If I want to know something, I go to the forums. I feel if there was meat on the bones, I might spend more time in the magazines. I probably give TAS a full hour. I probably give Whatsbest and hour or more every day.

If I were to see repeating theme in a magazine month after month, I would rather it be room optimization, equipment racking, speaker placement, power supplies, digital infrastructure, cartridge setup and so on. And I see no reason your favorite advertising partner would not be pleased, because your taking the time to set up their gear.

Rex

You articulated this very well. Much better than I could. I find a disconnect between my experience and what I read in magazines. The magazines feel written for the manufacturer’s, not for me the reader. There are exceptions, but I wish the magazines actually reflected what it is like to be an end user in this hobby trying to understand how to set up a good system, instead of just page after page of “what you need is a new X.” Some authors do that, but too few. I was subscribed o 3 magazines. I am letting one go. In the last 3 months alone, 70-80% of the reviews were written by one man! And in one issue, the % was even higher….

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . one of the worst speakers around, after Wilson . . .

I think you would be well-advised to discontinue the broadside Wilson bashing until you hear the XVX. If you think the XVX sounds awful, then I will respect your subjective broadside opinion on Wilson.

 

[Lee]

I think you would be well-advised to discontinue the broadside Wilson bashing until you hear the XVX. If you think the XVX sounds awful, then I will respect your subjective broadside opinion on Wilson.

In my own experience, many people I have met with unfavorable Wilson views are remembering the older designs and not the more musical newer designs. Daryl has taken things up quite a notch imho.

 

[Lee]

You articulated this very well. Much better than I could. I find a disconnect between my experience and what I read in magazines. The magazines feel written for the manufacturer’s, not for me the reader. There are exceptions, but I wish the magazines actually reflected what it is like to be an end user in this hobby trying to understand how to set up a good system, instead of just page after page of “what you need is a new X.” Some authors do that, but too few. I was subscribed o 3 magazines. I am letting one go. In the last 3 months alone, 70-80% of the reviews were written by one man! And in one issue, the % was even higher….

Which magazine had one person writing 80% of the reviews?

 

[Kingrex]

You articulated this very well. Much better than I could. I find a disconnect between my experience and what I read in magazines. The magazines feel written for the manufacturer’s, not for me the reader. There are exceptions, but I wish the magazines actually reflected what it is like to be an end user in this hobby trying to understand how to set up a good system, instead of just page after page of “what you need is a new X.” Some authors do that, but too few. I was subscribed o 3 magazines. I am letting one go. In the last 3 months alone, 70-80% of the reviews were written by one man! And in one issue, the % was even higher….

Tuning is hard. These guys arguing over vinyl vs digital. 98% of us probably do not have our vinyl and/or digital, set up properly. And here they are, spilling all over how one is better than the other. If only we could just set one up correctly and get all it has to offer.

I was on the Wally site this afternoon as a friend said I should look up his stuff. I forgot how complex a cartridge is. Take Zenith for example. Go look at Wallys site and think about what sort of equipment it takes to hear if your diamond is twisted in the cantilever just a little. I have started using a fluke meter and step up transformer to find my Azimuth. My SRA is by ear, but It takes a whole lot of tries to determine you went too far, then back it back in. I had no idea what to do about anti skate. I'm thinking of getting the wally tool for that. In the past I just hung the string on the lowest level and hoped that was right.

So yes, the whole of all the parts is tough to dial in. And a level of frustration sets in when dealers solution is buy another power cord thats $$$$ more than what you have. Or a USB cable. Or a new Amp. That fixes it all.

My guess is, print does not address tuning, because they don't have writers with the skills. They would need to reach out to subject matter experts and have them write it, or go through an extensive interview to understand it themselves. Its much easier to have someone send you a Widget, toss it in a rack, listen and share your impressions. I feel I'm going to get my keister reamed for vocalizing that one.

 

[Kingrex]

I think you would be well-advised to discontinue the broadside Wilson bashing until you hear the XVX. If you think the XVX sounds awful, then I will respect your subjective broadside opinion on Wilson.

I have been trying to respond to Marty's thread and his kind words of my work. Part of what I am trying to vocalize is my shock over the voicing of his Wilson speakers. I admittedly have never been a Wilson fan myself. But OMG. In a good room with the right amps, those speakers just got out of thr way and sang. Maybe its Martys ability to tune them. Maybe its the Gryphon amps. I don't teally know. But if I were blind folded and walked into that room, I would not be able to name the speaker or even if the amp were SS or tube. It was shockingly good. It was just music.

 

[Sampajanna]

Which magazine had one person writing 80% of the reviews?

I am talking about HiFi+, which should really be titled “Alan Sircom Reviews…” Take the Feb 22 issue for example, where he writes 9 out of 12 of the reviews + an article in the back interviewing Audiovector‘S CEO. Jan was even higher % than that…. And every article is the same really. You could cut and paste the products switching articles and it would be the same. He is a good writer, but the reviews reflect the amount of work this one man is doing. He obviously knows Hifi and seems like a fun man, but that much of any one person in any magazine, no matter who, is a deal breaker for me. Letting my subscription go. I have other complaints with this magazine, but I will leave it at that.