State of the industry - Roy Gregory Editorial

[tima]

Saying a $330k and $800k loudspeaker (which even the Stereophile reviewers considered a tough pill to swallow) is where the advancement is part of the problem.

Think what you will about Wilson, but they are famous for trickle down and trickle up application of their innovations to other models. Advancement at the top presages what they may offer in other models.

 

[ScottB]

I think ScottB and I might share more common ground than you think. I'm a bit of a purist when it comes to recordings and if Scott is saying we have drifted away from the better techniques of recording with fewer mics and fewer channels then I will be the first to buy him a beer at AXPONA.

We agree that minimally miked is better but I don't agree that mastering or vinyl formulations have gotten better. Case in point, I compared some of the Music Master Blue Note 45's to originals and came to conclusion that I strongly prefer the originals and will sell off the MM's as I acquire clean copies of the originals. In RVG I trust, everyone else, not so much. I realize that this is contrary to 99% of the opinion out there and is a very expensive decision but one I can live with. In general, I have found that reissues are not all that good.

As for equipment, I think we could agree that your laundry list of 4 items sound different but I would disagree that they are inherently better. Pre covid, the social aspect of audio was alive and well and was able to get out and hear a lot of contemporary gear. Most of of it I came away with the idea that I didn't want anything to do with it. There was certain aspects of it I liked but overall it lacked soul.

FYI, I would love to share a beer or scotch at AXPONA. Even though we disagree, there is no reason to be uncivilized about this. How about a lively discussion over a couple of Arbeg 10's?

 

[bonzo75]

Think what you will about Wilson, but they are famous for trickle down and trickle up application of their innovations to other models. Advancement at the top presages what they may offer in other models.

Well if their 200k models were anything to go by, they have a lot of room for advancement to catch up with vintage Tannoys

 

[XV-1]

Think what you will about Wilson, but they are famous for trickle down and trickle up application of their innovations to other models. Advancement at the top presages what they may offer in other models.

Tim, that is true. It's a pity they don't offer that on their lower models at lower prices - prices just keep going up despite the depreciation served in their higher models.

 

[MarcelNL]

Well if their 200k models were anything to go by, they have a lot of room for advancement to catch up with Tannots

I guess I have to listen to some in Munich, I recall hearing some Wilsons looong ago and leaving underwhelmed.

 

[Lee]

There are many average Wilsons and Magicos released over the past decade. Saying a $330k and $800k loudspeaker (which even the Stereophile reviewers considered a tough pill to swallow) is where the advancement is part of the problem.

Not really as the advancements in flagship gear trickle down to more reasonable products like more advanced and better sounding drivers in the Sasha DAW and Magico A5s.

The existence of an ultra-luxury segment is a positive development for the industry. We have seen this happen in the automotive, watch, and fashion sectors. It also helps make our beloved brands more financially stable.

 

[Lee]

We agree that minimally miked is better but I don't agree that mastering or vinyl formulations have gotten better. Case in point, I compared some of the Music Master Blue Note 45's to originals and came to conclusion that I strongly prefer the originals and will sell off the MM's as I acquire clean copies of the originals. In RVG I trust, everyone else, not so much. I realize that this is contrary to 99% of the opinion out there and is a very expensive decision but one I can live with. In general, I have found that reissues are not all that good.

As for equipment, I think we could agree that your laundry list of 4 items sound different but I would disagree that they are inherently better. Pre covid, the social aspect of audio was alive and well and was able to get out and hear a lot of contemporary gear. Most of of it I came away with the idea that I didn't want anything to do with it. There was certain aspects of it I liked but overall it lacked soul.

FYI, I would love to share a beer or scotch at AXPONA. Even though we disagree, there is no reason to be uncivilized about this. How about a lively discussion over a couple of Arbeg 10's?

Scott,

I would very much enjoy that. Thank you.

As for Music Matters, I agree with you as Ken Micallef and I have had this discussion. For me, however, the original Blue Notes have become so expensive and I did not have an inventory of them when they were reasonable in price. So the Music Matters for me were a god send of a gift…I worked to create the MM petition that helped convince Ron Rombach to bring more titles out and keep going.

 

[Lee]

I guess I have to listen to some in Munich, I recall hearing some Wilsons looong ago and leaving underwhelmed.

In many ways, I think Daryl has taken what he learned from his father and greatly improved the musicality. Dave’s resolution is there but the speakers are warmer in the best way and more musical overall.

 

[Lee]

Lee, Some people have likely compared the sound of the Air Force 1 and the last big Micro Seikis. They might not agree with your assessment. Granted, the AF1 is new and more complicated and did evolve from earlier designs, but does it actually sound more natural? I thought the Magico Mini II sounded more natural than the later Q1, and that the Q3 sounded more natural than the later S5.

I will be the first to admit that I have not had the opportunity to hear the last big MS table. I hope we get a chance to meet and I get to hear your system.

 

[PeterA]

Not really as the advancements in flagship gear trickle down to more reasonable products like more advanced and better sounding drivers in the Sasha DAW and Magico A5s.

The existence of an ultra-luxury segment is a positive development for the industry. We have seen this happen in the automotive, watch, and fashion sectors. It also helps make our beloved brands more financially stable.

I looked at a 1914 Edison music box the other day. The seller is a young opera singer. He played a couple disks at 80 RPM. I stepped back and that rotating horn filled his living room. He told me that this was Edison's flagship model costing $250 in 1914 and only the very wealthy could have afforded it. Much of the vintage gear that I have heard was also at the upper level because it is good enough to have survived and continues to be coveted.

I think the conversation is getting a bit confused. Mr. Gregory mentioned the last 10/20 years. I then brought in a turntable that is 40 years old, so I took his point off track. The WE speakers and VOTT are even older than that. Rarity effects the prices now, but at the time, those Micro Seiki tables were very expensive and few were made, just like that Edison. The theater horns were for commercial businesses, but my Vitavox corner horns were for wealthy homeowners. I do not know what lower level audio products from forty years ago sounded like. To be fair to Mr. Gregory, we should look at more recent advancements, and with those, I think Lee has a point. Magico and Wilson and digital streaming and DACs may indeed have gotten better over this short period. I certainly upgraded my share of Pass amplifiers and preamps in the last 10/20 years. It turns out that I prefer the older Lamm gear.

The lower end stuff may also sound better over time, like Al M.'s Yggy DAC. One can assemble a good sounding system for $25K if choosing carefully and knowing how to set it up. Much more interesting to me, however, is whether or not the former best can approach the current best, in terms of sound quality. I think it can. And, we can see from the VOTT and JBL horn based systems with Garrard and other vintage tables that really good sound can be achieved from what was not quite the best then for not much money, and some think it sounds better than the same priced current gear.

It is only a matter of opinion, but marching forward technology may surpass the sound quality of what came recently before, but does it surpass what came 30, 40, or 60 years ago? And the fact that many think that old vinyl records played on the right front end, not necessarily even the best, still sound better than any digital. It makes one wonder.

This is What's Best Forum, and Lee is from The Absolute Sound. We are not talking so much about the lower tiers, but the really good to best. The fact that there seems to be little consensus about what that is, is fascinating to me, and something worth considering. Perhaps we should just embrace the idea that there are many options out there, at all price points, that people can buy and enjoy. In the sense that we have both the good and best of what came before, and many new products to choose from, plus old recordings and a plethora of new, cheap and easily accessible music, perhaps we are living in a Golden Age right now. We have choices.

 

[caesar]

Man did this thread get hijacked into SO many things that have nothing to do with Roy's think piece.

Why should anyone be surprised? High end audio is a subjective experience. Guys choose what they want to focus on in their own personal pursuit - of whatever they are pursuing in the hobby.

Let me quote Sir John John Lubbock

“What we do see depends mainly on what we look for. ... In the same field the farmer will notice the crop, the geologists the fossils, botanists the flowers, artists the colouring, sportmen the cover for the game. Though we may all look at the same things, it does not all follow that we should see them.”

Other than the economically/ philosophically immature understanding of how industries are created, as someone mentioned, pretty much an excellent piece.

 

[Elliot G.]

Why should anyone be surprised? High end audio is a subjective experience. Guys choose what they want to focus on in their own personal pursuit - of whatever they are pursuing in the hobby.

Let me quote Sir John John Lubbock

“What we do see depends mainly on what we look for. ... In the same field the farmer will notice the crop, the geologists the fossils, botanists the flowers, artists the colouring, sportmen the cover for the game. Though we may all look at the same things, it does not all follow that we should see them.”

Other than the economically/ philosophically immature understanding of how industries are created, as someone mentioned, pretty much an excellent piece.

Many times when someone changes the subject it is to make the subject they are uncomfortable with go away. We all try to change the subject when we don't care for our involvement and to protect our own interests.
Roy makes some very good points about the issues with the audio industry. We may not agree on his assessments or their validity but they should raise some serious questions and open discussion.
IMO there are some very valid points.
Caesar for once I am in agreement with you LOL
There are some very valid conflicts that he points out and as someone that has been in the business for 50 years that I can confirm exist. Most will want to say they don't exist and didn't happen, they would be wrong. Its not all evil but its not all good either.

 

[caesar]

We can quibble with some of the substantive elements of, and with some of the described speed and direction of some of the elements of, Roy's chronology, but I think his main points are correct.

1) I think Roy tripped himself unnecessarily by stating that "high-end audio . . . isn’t and certainly never started out as an industry in the accepted sense of the word," and that "high-end audio isn’t an industry [because] it possesses none of the structural or regulatory bodies that you normally find in large, international markets. There’s no professional governing body, no qualifications, no regulation, no standards and no training."

When does a new product or a group of products produced by one or more young companies ever constitute an "industry" from inception? The absence of a regulatory body or a trade industry association doesn't evidence the absence of an industry as much as, I think, it evidences the absence of a large and mature industry.

Later Roy acknowledges that "high-end audio stopped being a hobby and became an industry, at least for those in the upper echelons of manufacturing."
...

Yes, other than this flawed point, an excellent article. When I read that, I was wondering if Roy learned his economics from the Bolsheviks or Mensheviks. Per your second quote, it must have been the Mensheviks.

 

[caesar]

Many times when someone changes the subject it is to make the subject they are uncomfortable with go away. We all try to change the subject when we don't care for our involvement and to protect our own interests.
Roy makes some very good points about the issues with the audio industry. We may not agree on his assessments or their validity but they should raise some serious questions and open discussion.
IMO there are some very valid points.
Caesar for once I am in agreement with you LOL
There are some very valid conflicts that he points out and as someone that has been in the business for 50 years that I can confirm exist. Most will want to say they don't exist and didn't happen, they would be wrong. Its not all evil but its not all good either.

Hey Elliot,
I guess I am glad we agree on something.

Actually, I've been talking about having more transparency in the hobby for many years now and how the industry operates... the social, psychological, and economical aspects of how something becomes the "best"...

If regular people in the hobby, not 150 guys who regularly comment on this site and stupidly assume everyone else is like them, had better understanding of how things work, guys can make better decisions and not waste time - and make the most of the hobby... And guys like you, who carry smaller and newer brands, had a better chance of differentiating the products in the market place from the Wilsons, Magicos, dCSs, etc...Definitely would be a better hobby

 

[Elliot G.]

Yes, other than this flawed point, an excellent article. When I read that, I was wondering if Roy learned his economics from the Bolsheviks or Mensheviks. Per your second quote, it must have been the Mensheviks.

I believe Roy was trying to point out that there is no barrier to entry like most Industries. You don't need a degree or a license, don't have to pass a test etc. All that is required is a checkbook and not necessarily a large one.
What are the qualifications? IMO this is what he was pointing out.

 

[Lee]

I looked at a 1914 Edison music box the other day. The seller is a young opera singer. He played a couple disks at 80 RPM. I stepped back and that rotating horn filled his living room. He told me that this was Edison's flagship model costing $250 in 1914 and only the very wealthy could have afforded it. Much of the vintage gear that I have heard was also at the upper level because it is good enough to have survived and continues to be coveted.

I think the conversation is getting a bit confused. Mr. Gregory mentioned the last 10/20 years. I then brought in a turntable that is 40 years old, so I took his point off track. The WE speakers and VOTT are even older than that. Rarity effects the prices now, but at the time, those Micro Seiki tables were very expensive and few were made, just like that Edison. The theater horns were for commercial businesses, but my Vitavox corner horns were for wealthy homeowners. I do not know what lower level audio products from forty years ago sounded like. To be fair to Mr. Gregory, we should look at more recent advancements, and with those, I think Lee has a point. Magico and Wilson and digital streaming and DACs may indeed have gotten better over this short period. I certainly upgraded my share of Pass amplifiers and preamps in the last 10/20 years. It turns out that I prefer the older Lamm gear.

The lower end stuff may also sound better over time, like Al M.'s Yggy DAC. One can assemble a good sounding system for $25K if choosing carefully and knowing how to set it up. Much more interesting to me, however, is whether or not the former best can approach the current best, in terms of sound quality. I think it can. And, we can see from the VOTT and JBL horn based systems with Garrard and other vintage tables that really good sound can be achieved from what was not quite the best then for not much money, and some think it sounds better than the same priced current gear.

It is only a matter of opinion, but marching forward technology may surpass the sound quality of what came recently before, but does it surpass what came 30, 40, or 60 years ago? And the fact that many think that old vinyl records played on the right front end, not necessarily even the best, still sound better than any digital. It makes one wonder.

This is What's Best Forum, and Lee is from The Absolute Sound. We are not talking so much about the lower tiers, but the really good to best. The fact that there seems to be little consensus about what that is, is fascinating to me, and something worth considering. Perhaps we should just embrace the idea that there are many options out there, at all price points, that people can buy and enjoy. In the sense that we have both the good and best of what came before, and many new products to choose from, plus old recordings and a plethora of new, cheap and easily accessible music, perhaps we are living in a Golden Age right now. We have choices.

Great post.

Maybe David Karmeli has created a sound system of vintage gear my ears would love. I hope I have a chance to hear his systems. And I am happy that he has done a magnificent job setting up your system and others here.

I think maybe the beauty of this hobby is that we have so many choices. My job, in part, is to help create ways to bring people into the hobby and simplify some of the complexity they face. I think Robert and the writers do an excellent job at that.

Our hobby is a niche business but it suffers primarily imho from a lack of awareness.

I once attended leadership training at McKinsey with an amazing talk by famous classical conductor Benjamin Zander. His saying was, “everybody loves classical music, but some don’t know it yet.” I think the same is true for good sound. I was lucky, I got exposed by Mike Kay to the IRS system at Lyric. Once I heard that, there was no going back.

 

[Elliot G.]

Hey Elliot,
I guess I am glad we agree on something.

Actually, I've been talking about having more transparency in the hobby for many years now and how the industry operates... the social, psychological, and economical aspects of how something becomes the "best"...

If regular people in the hobby, not 150 guys who regularly comment on this site and stupidly assume everyone else is like them, had better understanding of how things work, guys can make better decisions and not waste time - and make the most of the hobby... And guys like you, who carry smaller and newer brands, had a better chance of differentiating the products in the market place from the Wilsons, Magicos, dCSs, etc...Definitely would be a better hobby

I do too and if I could speak my mind most wouldn't agree or like what I have to say.

 

[Lee]

Hey Elliot,
I guess I am glad we agree on something.

Actually, I've been talking about having more transparency in the hobby for many years now and how the industry operates... the social, psychological, and economical aspects of how something becomes the "best"...

If regular people in the hobby, not 150 guys who regularly comment on this site and stupidly assume everyone else is like them, had better understanding of how things work, guys can make better decisions and not waste time - and make the most of the hobby... And guys like you, who carry smaller and newer brands, had a better chance of differentiating the products in the market place from the Wilsons, Magicos, dCSs, etc...Definitely would be a better hobby

Gobel speakers were on the cover of Stereophile. Robert Harley wrote lovingly of the Wadax gear. CH Precision has won multiple awards from TAS, hifi+, and others.

The industry does a pretty good job of recognizing new brands. Look how fast hifirose has, er, risen.

 

[Elliot G.]

Gobel speakers were on the cover of Stereophile. Robert Harley wrote lovingly of the Wadax gear. CH Precision has won multiple awards from TAS, hifi+, and others.

The industry does a pretty good job of recognizing new brands. Look how fast hifirose has, er, risen.

Göbel is a 15 year old company not a new one. We have been in the US now for almost 4 years. The brand has gotten great recognition all over the world YET has never been as much as sniffed by TAS. The fact that John Atkinson reviewed the Marquis and it appeared on the front cover of the October 2020 Stereophile has absolutely nothing to do with TAS.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Suit yourself, Mike.

John, my invitation still stands for you to drive up I-5 from Salem to Seattle someday, and visit for a listen. anytime. it would be fun. hope it happens.