State of the industry - Roy Gregory Editorial

[howiebrou]

Surely no one can prove such thing. However the designer or both has explained the differences between them in interviews and why he considers it a positive evolution. Can you explain exactly why you think that the vintage MS (whichm BTW) sounds better than the AF1+ ?

I agree no one can prove it and I don't see the need to prove it either. It's just my opinion having listened to both of them many times. I also didn't say the MS sounds better than the AF1, just that I don't think you can say it is so the other way around as well. Both are good designs. I had a long chat with Nishikawa when the AF1 just came out. Nice guy and obviously justifiably proud of his creations.

 

[Lee]

I agree no one can prove it and I don't see the need to prove it either. It's just my opinion having listened to both of them many times. I also didn't say the MS sounds better than the AF1, just that I don't think you can say it is so the other way around as well. Both are good designs. I had a long chat with Nishikawa when the AF1 just came out. Nice guy and obviously justifiably proud of his creations.

It would be fun to have a shootout with the same cartridge and phono stage going into a high quality system. My heart would like to believe the MS is equal to the AF1 but my brain has me thinking that the AF products are more refined due to the ongoing learning of a perfectionist like Nishikawa.

 

[howiebrou]

It would be fun to have a shootout with the same cartridge and phono stage going into a high quality system. My heart would like to believe the MS is equal to the AF1 but my brain has me thinking that the AF products are more refined due to the ongoing learning of a perfectionist like Nishikawa.

IMO, it's difficult to beat a product that was during it's production run at the heyday of audio manufacturing. The fact that there are so many MS still running perfectly decades after it's implementation shows the quality back then. In contrast, many AF's have had pump failures, bladder failures etc. Of course that doesn't mean it sounded better but when your best audio engineers are focused on one playback medium, the results are often worth listening to.

 

[marty]

Tuning is hard.... I have started using a fluke meter and step up transformer to find my Azimuth. My SRA is by ear, but It takes a whole lot of tries to determine you went too far, then back it back in.

Rex, one of the many excellent features of the Reed 3P is the adjustability of azimuth in real time. It is a beautiful design where one can dial in azimuth by ear without changing any other parameters very quickly with the right source material.

Part of what I am trying to vocalize is my shock over the voicing of his Wilson speakers. ... if I were blind folded and walked into that room, I would not be able to name the speaker or even if the amp were SS or tube. It was shockingly good. It was just music.

Rex, what was the first thing I did before you listened to a note? Recall I changed the seat cushion so that your ears were precisely at 37" off the floor, which was absolutely critical to getting the optimum sound from the Alexx V's. As I have written before, ear height alignment is extremely critical for any Wilsons that use a (modified) D'Appolito design for their upper modules. (The same is true for the Alexandrias). It stuns me that this continues to be so under-appreciated when folks listen to these speakers at shows. I suspect it is the single most important reason that many are not hearing the speaker at their best in any environment. Even in a private home, it is why one listener may find the speaker less than stellar, while others find them to sound excellent to the point they disappear. As you know, movement 1 inch up or down from the ideal position can have significant sonic repercussions. Remember, these speakers are always set up to a precise listener ear height as per Wilson's exacting set-up instructions. If your ear height is not the same as the "reference" listener, the results will almost certainly suffer. It is unfortunately an inherent liability of the design just as the horizontal Venetian blind effect is a liability of other designs such as many planar speakers. Since I listen critically in only one seat/position, ask me if I care?

Enough OT. Now, back to our regular programming....

 

[PeterA]

Here are some trends I see:

1. YouTube videos, audio influencers/brand ambassadors, audio shows, and forum discussions will get the word out. Jay's Lab is big.
2. Distributors/importers will sell direct to customer, in effect becoming dealers with large margins while small dealers exist out of their houses.
3. Some manufacturers will sell direct to customer with in home trial period and return policy. Think cables, tweaks, electronics.
4. Manufacturers and Industry people will do "private launches" at customers' houses with video documentations for forums and magazines.
5. Third party experts will set up and fine tune systems for a fee, including specialist electricians and room acoustic consultants.
6. MSRP will be only a data point with actual pricing worked out quietly.
7. Audio forums will continue with increasing banner ads and industry participation on forums will grow.

The DIY/hobbyist aspect will continue and perhaps grow. The traditional mainstream dealer/distribution model with magazine marketing will continue while it can, but things have been changing for a while.

 

[Lee]

Here are some trends I see:

1. YouTube videos, audio influencers/brand ambassadors, audio shows, and forum discussions will get the word out. Jay's Lab is big.
2. Distributors/importers will sell direct to customer, in effect becoming dealers with large margins while small dealers exist out of their houses.
3. Some manufacturers will sell direct to customer with in home trial period and return policy. Think cables, tweaks, electronics.
4. Manufacturers and Industry people will do "private launches" at customers' houses with video documentations for forums and magazines.
5. Third party experts will set up and fine tune systems for a fee, including specialist electricians and room acoustic consultants.
6. MSRP will be only a data point with actual pricing worked out quietly.
7. Audio forums will continue with increasing banner ads and industry participation on forums will grow.

The DIY/hobbyist aspect will continue and perhaps grow. The traditional mainstream dealer/distribution model with magazine marketing will continue while it can, but things have been changing for a while.

I think a lot of this is correct, but much of it is already happening, especially #2. I do, however, believe dealers will stick around and good ones will thrive. They still offer tons of value. In my opinion, they are the single best way to get more people introduced to the hobby.

I am not sure on #4. Most manufacturers I talk to are not happy with trade shows for various reasons but still feel a wide reach is needed for a proper product introduction.

On #5, I can't recommend enough folks like Jim Smith or Stirling Trayle. They are a better investment than speakers in terms of ROI.

On #7, audio forums are very fragmented and contain loads of misinformation on average. They are an important place to have discussions like this but good ones like WBF are few and far between.

 

[Elliot G.]

Rex, one of the many excellent features of the Reed 3P is the adjustability of azimuth in real time. It is a beautiful design where one can dial in azimuth by ear without changing any other parameters very quickly with the right source material.


Rex, what was the first thing I did before you listened to a note? Recall I changed the seat cushion so that your ears were precisely at 37" off the floor, which was absolutely critical to getting the optimum sound from the Alexx V's. As I have written before, ear height alignment is extremely critical for any Wilsons that use a (modified) D'Appolito design for their upper modules. (The same is true for the Alexandrias). It stuns me that this continues to be so under-appreciated when folks listen to these speakers at shows. I suspect it is the single most important reason that many are not hearing the speaker at their best in any environment. Even in a private home, it is why one listener may find the speaker less than stellar, while others find them to sound excellent to the point they disappear. As you know, movement 1 inch up or down from the ideal position can have significant sonic repercussions. Remember, these speakers are always set up to a precise listener ear height as per Wilson's exacting set-up instructions. If your ear height is not the same as the "reference" listener, the results will almost certainly suffer. It is unfortunately an inherent liability of the design just as the horizontal Venetian blind effect is a liability of other designs such as many planar speakers. Since I listen in only one seat/position, ask me if I care?

Enough OT. Now, back to our regular programming....

Marty , I think that you have made a very good point and one I find is dramatically ignored. A great sounding audio system is far more than the ingredients. To realize the full potential of a system there are many factors that need to be addressed and problems to be solved that has nothing to do with which piece of equipment you own or want to purchase. Let me say this first THERE IS A WONDERFUL SELECTION OF AMAZING GEAR TODAY.
Let me move on. Many are still looking for the silver bullet to fix what's inherently wrong with the sound that they had made. Yes they have made not the gear. Trying to fix a bad room, bad set up, bad acoustics, bad seating position, bad electrical supply, bad room noise levels etc. can't be over come by a new widgit!!
If you want to get any of the great speakers available today to do their job you must get the room right, you must get the speaker position correct, you must get your seating spot right. It seems people want to go round and round on WBF as if they understand this yet when you read on it seems they don't. I have gotten the opportunity in the last two years to hear Marty's system, Mike Lavigne's system , Carlos Marin's system and a few others and all of them have one thing in common. Wilson speakers NO, Tubes ? same cables? No they have a room that has been addressed and a properly set up and dialed in system. The judging the sound of high end speakers from drive buy's at shows or in a crowded dealer showroom with multiple other speakers in the same room , or with piles of gear between the speakers is quite a different experience.
Audio requires a lot of perspiration and effort. If you are instituting a system in a multi purpose room full of fireplaces, windows, large screen TV's , high backed listening chairs and other weird non helping objects you need to realize that these are not helping your sound. If you system is neatly stacked along a wall with everything tie-wrapped and all in the same plane your probably are not getting everything possible from whatever you bought..
If you don't know how to optimize a system, or don't have someone that can assist you, I cannot suggest more that you find someone that can. IMO this is a very good investment to get you on the proper path no matter what kind of gear you have.

 

[marty]

Elliot, you can count your own room among the others you mentioned. As you know, I sneaked a quick frequency response to pink noise when I was there 2 days ago. (I did it while you were out of the room BBQ'ing lunch as I didn't want you to fart dust in case it looked terrible!) Fortunately, it looked beautiful (which for me means it closely mimicked the "ideal" B&K microphone curve at the listening position).

see Figure 5: https://www.bksv.com/media/doc/17-197.pdf

Nice job setting up a modestly sized room very well!

For me, it all starts with frequency response. If that's not right, I have little interest in knowing whose fuse, footer, or incantations you use to optimize your system.

 

[Elliot G.]

Elliot, you can count your own room among the others you mentioned. As you know, I sneaked a quick frequency response to pink noise when I was there 2 days ago. (I did it while you were out of the room BBQ'ing lunch as I didn't want you to fart dust in case it looked terrible!) Fortunately, it looked beautiful (which for me means it closely mimicked the ideal B&K microphone curve at the listening position). Nice job setting up a modestly sized room very well!

thank you Marty. As you know and we discussed this part of Audio is ignored far too often.

 

[bonzo75]

Mike's room and Marty's room should not be taken as standard. In fact it is rarer than the most rare of LPs to get rooms this size and properly treated.

 

[Elliot G.]

Mike's room and Marty's room should not be taken as standard. In fact it is rarer than the most rare of LPs to get this rooms this size and properly tre

 

[Elliot G.]

Bonzo,
I am not trying to be difficult or argumentative but there are lots of opinions thrown around on this site. There are many levels of audio and the results are very different. I have said before that all High End is not the same or should even be considered as the same. My feelings there is good, better, excellent and extraordinary. The last category is a moving target and what that is today will be the excellent of tomorrow. When something comes to market that surpasses the previous levels it doesn't make the past bad it just means there are new items that may surpasses the previous performance capabilities. I have seen this in audio since the 60's.
I also think that the ability to get to these rare areas is very dependent on many factors. Without a room that works the cutting edge cannot be achieved. This does not mean everything else is bad it just means there may be flaws that hinder the ultimate performance.
One would expect that if you are going to chase the dragon's tail that you will need the place to do it. I don't think that Mike and Marty's or Carlos's or others are that rare. Those how purchase these crazy cutting edge items most times are aware of what they need. You will never get all that's possible from gear in the wrong environment. I commend those that have followed this path and I advise others to realize and understand the journey so they don't get frustrated and forget about the music.

 

[Alrainbow]

Excellent post

 

[microstrip]

(...) For me, it all starts with frequency response. If that's not right, I have little interest in knowing whose fuse, footer, or incantations you use to optimize your system.

I find curious that people put such emphasis on the frequency response and then choose vinyl, known for seldom being right in the frequency response, either for the recording process or the playback process.

 

[microstrip]

It would be fun to have a shootout with the same cartridge and phono stage going into a high quality system. My heart would like to believe the MS is equal to the AF1 but my brain has me thinking that the AF products are more refined due to the ongoing learning of a perfectionist like Nishikawa.

My brain looks at the technical aspects and existing information on both models and makes me think I would prefer the AF1. The fact that most people here prefer the SME 3012R to any other arm in the MS also does not help.

 

[Lee]

My brain looks at the technical aspects and existing information on both models and makes me think I would prefer the AF1. The fact that most people here prefer the SME 3012R to any other arm in the MS also does not help.

I talked to a number of analog experts...they suggested the AF3P plus Kuzma 4P would be a great combination.

 

[microstrip]

I talked to a number of analog experts...they suggested the AF3P plus Kuzma 4P would be a great combination.

Or the AF1P with the SAT tonearm - I listened to it several times and it created fabulous music. If I was a vinyl committed audiophile I would find it hard to resist. For my occasional use the Graham is great!

 

[Lee]

Or the AF1P with the SAT tonearm - I listened to it several times and it created fabulous music. If I was a vinyl committed audiophile I would find it hard to resist. For my occasional use the Graham is great!

That was beyond my budget by about $50K.

 

[Jmn]

www.Highfidelity.pl/@main-1164&lang=en

Here is an Interview with Roy, and his take on reviewing, etc. Hopefully this will give some more insight and perspective.

 

[gleeds]

Great post.

Maybe David Karmeli has created a sound system of vintage gear my ears would love. I hope I have a chance to hear his systems. And I am happy that he has done a magnificent job setting up your system and others here.

I think maybe the beauty of this hobby is that we have so many choices. My job, in part, is to help create ways to bring people into the hobby and simplify some of the complexity they face. I think Robert and the writers do an excellent job at that.

Our hobby is a niche business but it suffers primarily imho from a lack of awareness.

I once attended leadership training at McKinsey with an amazing talk by famous classical conductor Benjamin Zander. His saying was, “everybody loves classical music, but some don’t know it yet.” I think the same is true for good sound. I was lucky, I got exposed by Mike Kay to the IRS system at Lyric. Once I heard that, there was no going back.

Here are some trends I see:

1. YouTube videos, audio influencers/brand ambassadors, audio shows, and forum discussions will get the word out. Jay's Lab is big.
2. Distributors/importers will sell direct to customer, in effect becoming dealers with large margins while small dealers exist out of their houses.
3. Some manufacturers will sell direct to customer with in home trial period and return policy. Think cables, tweaks, electronics.
4. Manufacturers and Industry people will do "private launches" at customers' houses with video documentations for forums and magazines.
5. Third party experts will set up and fine tune systems for a fee, including specialist electricians and room acoustic consultants.
6. MSRP will be only a data point with actual pricing worked out quietly.
7. Audio forums will continue with increasing banner ads and industry participation on forums will grow.

The DIY/hobbyist aspect will continue and perhaps grow. The traditional mainstream dealer/distribution model with magazine marketing will continue while it can, but things have been changing for a while.

Peter thank you for these observations. As someone that makes their living from high-end audio this is something I never stop considering. Many of the points you made regarding how the industry has changed and will continue to are indeed true. The question for me as an importer and reseller is how do we add value and lower the total cost of ownership for the customer? One is being a good listener. Next is having deep, extensive knowledge with which to advise our clients. Included in that is not only specific component experience but also a deep understanding of system synergy including room acoustics, clean power delivery, and the effects of mechanical and airborne vibration. Without that knowledge, as well as a willingness to know the customer's needs intimately surely we are nothing more than "box pushers" and a cost to be reduced.

WBF has been a godsend for me to learn what is on the minds of fellow audiophiles, see trends as they unfold, and have the chance to contribute to the discourse. As far as online content creators go while I am not signaling out anyone specific I do oftentimes wonder how much knowledge they possess? As far as the major periodicals go they employ reviewers with known credentials and high levels of institutional knowledge. Naturally, there is a point where business interests can intersect with the review process. IMO, that is where a publisher like Lee comes in. The publisher can be intimately involved in establishing and maintaining a process that ensures fair, unbiased reporting and editorial integrity. A good publisher/editor will also work with his team to continuously be on the lookout for emerging companies that are advancing the state of the art. I believe Lee mentioned that TAS is doing this consistently and are in the process of creating a developers series in video form.

As for WBF members, we certainly benefit from hearing directly from the developers such as Emil at Taiko and Lukasz at Lampizator. Add to those contributers highly experienced purveyors and manufacturers such as Bob Visitainer, Jonathan Tinn, Elliot Goldman, Joe Cohen et.al.

By all means, let's keep challenging what appears to be industry dogma in reasonable discourse. This benefits everyone and allows our small industry to remain vibrant and moving ahead!