State of the industry - Roy Gregory Editorial

“As for WBF members, we certainly benefit hearing directly from the developers……”



Gleeds, I agree with much of what you say. Discourse between end users and the producers of high-end components seems vital in the industry at this point in time. I’ve learned much over the years at WBF, even if I don’t own the specific components which some members (such as Lukasz) have produced. But hearing their passion, approach and reasoning (with technological implementation, etc.) for development of such remarkable components, allows for a better understanding and appreciation of musical reproduction hardware, and quite frankly, the manner in which we hear music through our own components. It can certainly be a two way street as I’m certain the producers also learn from users inquiries.

I wish Javier Guadalajara could be on your list as well, but I haven’t seen him posting here on WBF. (Correct me if I am wrong).
 
“As for WBF members, we certainly benefit hearing directly from the developers……”



Gleeds, I agree with much of what you say. Discourse between end users and the producers of high-end components seems vital in the industry at this point in time. I’ve learned much over the years at WBF, even if I don’t own the specific components which some members (such as Lukasz) have produced. But hearing their passion, approach and reasoning (with technological implementation, etc.) for development of such remarkable components, allows for a better understanding and appreciation of musical reproduction hardware, and quite frankly, the manner in which we hear music through our own components. It can certainly be a two way street as I’m certain the producers also learn from users inquiries.

I wish Javier Guadalajara could be on your list as well, but I haven’t seen him posting here on WBF. (Correct me if I am wrong).
Thanks. FYI, love Robert Lee's cable, although he keeps a low profile these days they remain some of the best. Sorry, I don't know Javier but perhaps other WBF members do.
 
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www.Highfidelity.pl/@main-1164&lang=en

Here is an Interview with Roy, and his take on reviewing, etc. Hopefully this will give some more insight and perspective.
I liked this a lot as well! I hope you don’t mind me quoting, but the below is incredibly poignant. It highlights a huge issue of reviewing without context (room, audio journey, system synergy, musical preferences, etc.) and the swap a box, buy a box, then another mentality the magazines promote just doesn‘t work.

“As to the reviews themselves, as I suggested above, the whole process is widely misunderstood, starting with the methodological problems associated with so called ‘Reference Systems’ and the ‘one in-one out’ review technique championed by early high-end publications and still prevalent today. Because you can’t listen to a product, only a system, swapping out one product for another in single set-up only tells you which product suits that system better.

“What’s more, if the system is optimised around one product (say, an amplifier) it is unlikely to work at its best with another unit, unless you totally re-set the speakers to accommodate changes in low-frequency balance and the amp/speaker interface. How often does that happen? Rarely if ever – because ‘the change only one thing’ mind-set rejects the obvious, which in turn pretty much undermines or limits the usefulness of most reviews!”

—Roy, from the above interview
 
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John, my invitation still stands for you to drive up I-5 from Salem to Seattle someday, and visit for a listen. anytime. it would be fun. hope it happens.
Thanks once again for your kind invitation, Mike. However, for several reasons I respectfully decline. Including but not limited to the reason I mentioned a few years ago.
 
Whether one is speaking of loudspeaker cabinets or turntable plinths it makes sense to me that advanced materials and current designs generally are better at damping vibration. This is one reason why contemporary components sound different than vintage components.

Whether one prefers the sound of contemporary components or the sound of vintage components is a different question, with the answer grounded solely in personal, subjective preference.
 
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Instruments, whether it be a speaker or an actual instrument? It defines the playback.

JMW plays with the speaker itself as an instrument. Magico is at the other extreme.

Where one ends up at is up to the discretion of the listener.

Tom
 
It highlights a huge issue of reviewing without context (room, audio journey, system synergy, musical preferences, etc.) and the swap a box, buy a box, then another mentality the magazines promote just doesn‘t work.

Would you entertain the notion that perhaps audio reviews are not suited to what you're looking to read?
Alternatively, consider writing a review that meets your own needs and submit it for publication or post it here - limit yourself to 3200 words.

There is one approach a review can adopt that is based on changing a single component/element in a system while leaving the system othewise intact. It is effective for focusing on the product at hand without asking the reviewer to account for, or the reader to factor in, other sytem changes. I did that for my GPA Monaco review where I had the v2 and the earlier v1.5 turntables both on hand with the intent to describe the differences between them. Same tonearm, same cartridge, same everything else. It is an effective approach to draw out differences and similarities between products.

A hard truth is that very few reviewers have access to multiple systems for reviewing a component. It is also true that few reviewers have multiple components sitting around for purposes of attempting to optimise a review component. Of course it would be nice to have what Roy Gregory has - multiple systems in multiple listening rooms, but there are very few people whose sole occupation is writing about audio components or systems. If that is what you're looking for, perhaps be very selective in who you read.

On the other hand, you regularly find a group of readers who wag their chastising tongues at reviewers who accept manufacturer equipment loans, short or long term. Some find that suspicious behavior. One thing that gets little discussion is the amount of space it takes to store multiple speakers, amplifiers, turntables, etc., owned or not, especially if you don't have multiple listening rooms.

As far as context goes, I have not seen many, if any, reviews that do not list associated equipment. If you read enough from a particular writer you can pick up on their "audio journey" and musical preferences - remember you only get so many words - what do your readers want to hear about, you or the subject of your review? Reviews generally are not auto-biographical. I don't know what is meant by publications promoting 'swap a box, buy a box.' I've never told anyone to buy anything.

Reviewing by and large is an amateur / non-professional activity that takes a good chunk of time and dedication to do well - all for miniscule compensation. Roy is an exception as are a handful of writers who are funded through their publications and auxillary audio activities such as product demonstrations and consulting.
 
Whether one is speaking of loudspeaker cabinets or turntable plinths it makes sense to me that advanced materials and current designs generally are better at damping vibration. This is one reason why contemporary components sound different than vintage components.

Whether one prefers the sound of contemporary components or the sound of vintage components is a different question, with the answer grounded solely in personal, subjective preference.

I doubt anyone will dispute they damp more. The question is how much that affects overall sound. I also have no doubt most new drivers are of poorer quality, in fact in relative terms even cheaper. Plus, the size and design is made for smaller fits and compromises sound. There is not enough R&D the likes of Bell labs backed by the U.S. Govt would have, or large companies like Altec, Jbl, and TAD has in those days. So how can people conclude what the cabinet material is doing for the sound?

There are footers and acoustic treatments made with different types of materials including wood.. Do you think in all these cases You can judge by material?
 
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Maybe we should tell musicians to change their instruments to phenolic or modern materials because they have better damping properties.
 
I liked this a lot as well! I hope you don’t mind me quoting, but the below is incredibly poignant. It highlights a huge issue of reviewing without context (room, audio journey, system synergy, musical preferences, etc.) and the swap a box, buy a box, then another mentality the magazines promote just doesn‘t work.
Sure it does. Aside from being perhaps the most subjective performance-oriented industry, this also happens to be perhaps the least scientific-oriented industry. Coincidence?

None of us will ever know a component's true performance potential as it should be impossible. That said, I suspect a swap-a-box strategy is intended to only give us an idea or a glimpse of its potential benefit / demise. I'd venture it's unrealistic to expect much more given all of the variables that make up a given playback system, including the mindset of the one doing the swap as well as our interpretations as observers / readers. Even if there was extra inventory on hand.

“As to the reviews themselves, as I suggested above, the whole process is widely misunderstood, starting with the methodological problems associated with so called ‘Reference Systems’ and the ‘one in-one out’ review technique championed by early high-end publications and still prevalent today. Because you can’t listen to a product, only a system, swapping out one product for another in single set-up only tells you which product suits that system better."
Indeed, we can only listen to a system in its entirety. But that is hardly a justifiable argument for Roy's claim that swapping a single product determines which product suits that system better. Just like every configured system, every component ought to be as unique as individual fingerprints. That goes for rooms as well. Reviewers engaging deeper really only potentially opens up more cans of worms and more questions. And it pays to remember we're already all over the map regarding most any significant topic. Not to mention that some reviewers are more savvy than others regarding certain matters and less savvy regarding other matters and we don't have a program to read which is which. Then of course, there's the reviewer's listening skills. Given all these things and more, how might introducing still more variables lead to better informed conclusions?

“What’s more, if the system is optimised around one product (say, an amplifier) it is unlikely to work at its best with another unit, unless you totally re-set the speakers to accommodate changes in low-frequency balance and the amp/speaker interface. How often does that happen? Rarely if ever – because ‘the change only one thing’ mind-set rejects the obvious, which in turn pretty much undermines or limits the usefulness of most reviews!”

—Roy, from the above interview
Many of us may have a favorite component or two but I'm somewhat unfamiliar with the concept of optimizing a system around a particular product. The concept sounds kinda' silly to me so it's probably best that it not be explained. Again, Roy's argument here should be for the birds for a number reasons.

For example. Re-setting speakers - presumably meaning repositioning / retuning (if they have dials or switches) speakers ought to be completely independent of any component. For the simple reason that repositioning / retuning a speaker has to do entirely with its interface / acoustic coupling to the associated room and not an electronic component. IOW, if after a component swap a speaker has a more musical bass and then the reviewer repositions the speaker for still more musical bass, I'll bet dollars-to-donuts that if the old component was swapped back in, it too would benefit from the speaker repositioning. But also, if a component exhibits better bass, chances are excellent that frequencies above the bass region also ought to improve because components and/or systems should lack any real ability to discriminate between frequencies. Even if only the bass region sound improved.

Another example. It's pretty clear that we're all over the map regarding vibration mgmt methods, designs, materials, knowledge, understanding, etc. If upon swapping in a new component and say the bass sounds a bit more musical, well... Since we're all over the map on numerous things, how does Roy or anybody know that when the new component was swapped in, he happened to better strategically place his Center Stage 2 pucks even a quarter inch so under the new component so as to cause a more musical impact than with the old component? Yes, a 1/4-inch reposition can make a sonic difference on the same component. And in this instance, introducing a new component and the innards including the power supply could be anywhere else than the old component. So from the outside the Center Stage 2 pucks are only a 1/4-inch out of placement but from the new component's innards the CS2 pucks could be repositioned 5 or more inches.

Any one of us could go on with numerous more examples. But the point being is, there are some-to-many black boxes in high-end audio, perhaps even some nobody has discovered yet, and we're fooling ourselves if we think there aren't or that somebody has truly mastered even one of them. And of course there are those areas for which many of us misinterpret or even poorly prioritize.

If any of these and more examples have the potential to be even remotely true, I would think the less one disrupts the apple cart, the fewer cans of worms are opened, the fewer chances for erroneous conclusions, and the more one is able to evaluate something based only on its face value alone. IOW, there's always the potential that a lot more going on beneath the surface of anything we do. Even if it's just moving an interconnect cable 2-inches this way or that way.
 
Yes, gleeds, with regards to Mr. Lee. Javier is the genius at the helm of Wadax.
 
Would you entertain the notion that perhaps audio reviews are not suited to what you're looking to read?

I really liked your reply and there is truth in it to think about. I do enjoy reading some articles/magazines more than others. You are correct that I am not seeing enough of what I want to read. Maybe that is just me. And I really appreciated you showing me a window into the reviewing process and how hard it is, including the space it all takes up literally. I couldn't imagine doing it. It does help to remember that it is a tough task and that certainly increases my appreciation for the authors.

I agree that I am not seeing enough of what I want to read, which is what I am expressing here in my own inarticulate and admittedly poor way that perhaps is not expressed well or clear enough: I'd like to see more story in reviews and less reviews in general perhaps or at least reviews that situate products in systems. I would like more transparency, the way Youtube reviewers of cameras say: Canon sent me his camera but I cannot keep it and they have no say over what I write... Or if magazines would address the advertising issues Roy mentions in the interview quoted above. What I feel is that the magazines aren't speaking of the audio world I inhabit, walk through and live in--the problems and issues me and my buddies are facing in our systems and the methods for solving them. What they are good at is telling me about new products and turning me on to new music. Some authors do better and I do feel like I get to know their journey, the music they love and why they choose the gear they do. Like any subject, some authors are fun to read and others are boring. I could be alone on this, and I am willing to be wrong about anything, but I do feel like the magazines are written for the benefit of the manufacturers/dealers rather than the music and gear lovers reading the magazine. And old timers often tell me it didn't used to be that way (though they say that about most things). I am not sure there is a solution to this issue, or if anyone on the magazine side even cares.
 
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I also have no doubt most new drivers are of poorer quality, in fact in relative terms even cheaper....
Really? Magico or YG proprietary drivers? Accuton? Beryllium tweeters or midranges? Diamond coated tweeters?
 
Whether one is speaking of loudspeaker cabinets or turntable plinths it makes sense to me that advanced materials and current designs generally are better at damping vibration. This is one reason why contemporary components sound different than vintage components.

Whether one prefers the sound of contemporary components or the sound of vintage components is a different question, with the answer grounded solely in personal, subjective preference.
Designer’s values, education and dare I say intellect have changed too otherwise mechanical dampening was never a big deal just never considered the magic bullet it has become. Of course Ked is correct about components.

david
 
Really? Magico or YG proprietary drivers? Accuton? Beryllium tweeters or midranges? Diamond coated tweeters?

Really. What do you think the old drivers were made of? And please, proprietary, means nothing.

So what is special about Beryllium? After Takajo San, a hifi and music critic joined Goto in the 60s, he led the R&D at Goto to record acoustic instruments live and to try and reproduce them through Goto drivers. Listening, rather than measurements, was his style. Goto’s R&D went down this road, and ended up changing their aluminum diaphragms (then the most widely used in Altec, JBL, Goto etc) to titanium. After that, Takajo San started recording sounds of chirping insects and other sounds from nature to test his drivers. This effort to reproduce sounds of nature led Goto to develop Beryllium diaphragms.

The Be diaphragms changed to duralumin in 2005 only because of the cost, as Be became very expensive due to countries using it for defense/atomic purposes. But their upper models continue to be Beryllium

Alnico motors changed to Ferrite once cost of Cobalt went up. Today Intact Audio and others who use autoformers are considered premium volume control, but Western Electric used inductive volume control 100 years ago. This was dropped for potentiometer in later decades due to cost. And today, quality Be drivers are expensive. Check the cost of Cessaro Gamma which uses TAD drivers. Check the quality of drivers till the 70s and the prices then.
 
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I doubt anyone will dispute they damp more. The question is how much that affects overall sound. I also have no doubt most new drivers are of poorer quality, in fact in relative terms even cheaper. Plus, the size and design is made for smaller fits and compromises sound. There is not enough R&D the likes of Bell labs backed by the U.S. Govt would have, or large companies like Altec, Jbl, and TAD has in those days. So how can people conclude what the cabinet material is doing for the sound?

There are footers and acoustic treatments made with different types of materials including wood.. Do you think in all these cases You can judge by material?
This is silly. Computers and software have lowered the marginal cost of production considerably. Materials science is vastly better. To say we don’t know more than engineers in the 50s is a tough sell. Whether you like the sound is still subjective. But even companies like Fyne are taking what Tannoy did for 50 years and creating new, better sounding designs without the old school constraints. Zu actually uses Harry Rosens science from the 30s and modernizes it with materials science.

Your preferences may lead to vintage sound for numerous reasons (SET friendly, etc) but that’s subjective. And it’s still a very small niche market despite the overbalanced discussion on this forum about them for 5+ years.
 
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The woofers today don't have the size, efficiency to move easily, the sensitivity of the old woofers. Hence you need cabinets to increase the decibel of the bass of the tiny woofers. That gives louder boom at the cost of cabinet coloration, so a problem is created, and then to rectify the problem damping material is required
 
This is silly. Computers and software have lowered the marginal cost of production considerably. Materials science is vastly better. To say we don’t know more than engineers in the 50s is a tough sell. Whether you like the sound is still subjective. But even companies like Fyne are taking what Tannoy did for 50 years and creating new, better sounding designs without the old school constraints. Zu actually uses Harry Rosens science from the 30s and modernizes it with materials science.

Your preferences may lead to vintage sound for numerous reasons (SET friendly, etc) but that’s subjective. And it’s still a very small niche market despite the overbalanced discussion on this forum about them for 5+ years.
Sorry, I have listed enough SS preferences. The SETs point comes into play when it is convenient to position that for your argument.

There is no evidence right now that Fyne is improved upon tannoys black, silver, red, gold, or HPD 315 drivers (that is in decreasing order of tannoy quality). The Kensington you heard and later are crap drivers. The designers of Fyne weren't alive when the quality tannoy drivers were produced
 
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Produce that sound on your
Fynes

 
I apologize for bringing an NLAW to the fight
 

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