State of the industry - Roy Gregory Editorial

[ddk]

A pity you had to compare designers interesting and enlightening discussions and articles with a poisonous audio site and bring Vladimir Lamm to the bearing subject. You had many years and occasions to show and discuss the bearing, unfortunately I think it is now an outdated subject.

You conveniently ignored the 2nd part of my post where I'm discussing a design . ALL turntable bearings are dated including AS2000's please name one current production tt with a totally new and innovative bearing. If it's a turning table it's been done long before but maybe I missed a couple that you're aware of, don't say the Mag-Lev .

Perhaps some time in the future we will have a tube phono box!

Maybe, it all comes down to execution.

david

 

[MarcelNL]

Younger people will enjoy far better results with restored vintage, because there are very low distribution and marketing margins involved. The cost of modern high end is more due to the mark ups involved.

Unfortunately the young audiophile has to go through the curve of cheap, expensive, shows, magazines, before gaining experience and understanding the price quality modern vintage spectrum

true for some vintage gear, have you seen price tags on anything labeled 'Klangfilm' or 'Western Electric' lately?
I agree with what you are saying, there is a learning curve in listening as much as with f.e. wine tasting.

 

[bonzo75]

true for some vintage gear, have you seen price tags on anything labeled 'Klangfilm' or 'Western Electric' lately?
I agree with what you are saying, there is a learning curve in listening as much as with f.e. wine tasting.

That is also rarity. Altecs and jbl are relatively cheaper, as are some tannoy drivers. TD 124, Garrard, micro seiki DDX 1500. And cost of full range dual FLH with many good drivers is similar to basic models in a speaker line up

 

[ddk]

These new materials impact performance however, so it is germane to the conversation.

Of course materials affect sound but what has changed in record players?

Sound quality has improved because these refinements, based on new technology, have enabled more precision. They can be incremental in nature but in aggregate are huge factors.

Sound quality better or worse has zero to do with the topic, is this all you have because you're wrong here too. A POS is still a POS no matter how you layer it, don't confuse novelty with good design or innovation.

david

 

[MarcelNL]

You conveniently ignored the 2nd part of my post where I'm discussing a design . ALL turntable bearings are dated including AS2000's please name one current production tt with a totally new and innovative bearing. If it's a turning table it's been done long before but maybe I missed a couple that you're aware of, don't say the Mag-Lev .



Maybe, it all comes down to execution.

david

IMO much if not all comes down to execution...currently I'm listening to a couple of bypass caps, hand made using precious metals and it's borderline ridiculous what's happening. (We're talking bypass on the 12V DC rail to the CPU in my server project).

Bonzo
That is also rarity. Altecs and jbl are relatively cheaper, as are some tannoy drivers. TD 124, Garrard, micro seiki DDX 1500. And cost of full range dual FLH with many good drivers is similar to basic models in a speaker line up

Sure, I know...have a look at what I'm using ;-)

 

[Salectric]

Rex, will try to do better in terms of discussing system approaches and spending more time on acoustics. We do a pretty good job on tweaks like footers, etc.

Thank you for your feedback.

As an early TAS subscriber who began with Issue #2, I have a suggestion. There were some pieces in the early days where reviewers recommended systems at different price points. This was in the CJ PV-5 days (1980s) since I recall it appeared in a number of recommended systems. Those pieces were always interesting and I re-read them a number of times. I suggest doing something similar in today’s TAS.

In more recent years, TAS has become more disposable. As one poster in this thread described, I glance through the contents page of each new issue when it arrives, read any review that is in my fields of interest (usually none), and then spend an hour or so that evening reading a few other reviews, and it then goes in the trash. That’s quite different from the old days when I scoured each word of each review and kept all the back issues for future reference. Kinda sad.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thank you for that excellent summation, Peter!

 

[ddk]

true for some vintage gear, have you seen price tags on anything labeled 'Klangfilm' or 'Western Electric' lately?
I agree with what you are saying, there is a learning curve in listening as much as with f.e. wine tasting.

They were never for younger people Marcel , for one very few could even afford the space to house them and you have to know about them. There are plenty of inexpensive choices available but it's still the same problem for many people, where do you learn about them?

That is also rarity. Altecs and jbl are relatively cheaper, as are some tannoy drivers. TD 124, Garrard, micro seiki DDX 1500. And cost of full range dual FLH with many good drivers is similar to basic models in a speaker line up

DDX 1500 is junk doesn't belong in that group you want the RX-1500.

david

 

[stehno]

figured you might not be offended, more entertained, by my comment. you are a serious minded person. i respect that.

the designer of my speakers also designed the original Von Schweikert VR11SE, VR9SE and VR7SE when he worked for Von Schweikert. he left there to join with your neighbor, Jonathan Tinn, to start Evolution Acoustics. his name is Kevin Malmgren. lives in San Deigo. he did the heavy lifting to finish a design Jonathan started years before and i even had a small part of listening feedback of that prototype. that became the MM3. then in 2012 Kevin designed my MM7's based on the MM3. i got the 3rd pair of those, the 2nd pair of the MM3's 7 years prior.

Interesting, Mike. This is all quite different from my understanding.

Yes, I take high-end audio quite seriously but I also see much humor in it. For example. I got a pretty good chuckle reading microstrip’s praise of your many contributions here as an enthusiast, even suggesting that WBF thank you for your contributions.

Correct me if I’m wrong but I get the impression you’ve not fully or perhaps not even partially disclosed any of your audio business affiliations and associated financial investments. Including but not limited to your potential involvement with the Evolution Acoustics speakers from womb to tomb which seems to also be in sharp contrast to your response above. For example. Is it not true during the first 4 years of prototyping the Evolution Acoustics speakers you travelled to Portland perhaps every time there was a significant project advancement and even met with the original designer during some of those trips / auditions?

If you have disclosed your business endeavors, my apologies. If you haven’t, are we not obligated to disclose all such business endeavors in our signatures for all to plainly see so as to more easily discern enthusiasts from those with vested interests?

 

[MarcelNL]

They were never for younger people Marcel , for one very few could even afford the space to house them and you have to know about them. There are plenty of inexpensive choices available but it's still the same problem for many people, where do you learn about them?

I guess that is true, what I was trying to convey is that the good sides of vintage gear seems lost...somehow space for a speaker was traded for amps heating up rooms putting out exorbitant amounts of power in order to power up smaller and far less efficient speakers that typically sound like what most are made of ; cardboard boxes.

I do hope that fora and magazines speak about the worthwhile options that are out there, where the trade off between budget and speaker WAF lies is up to each individual. I count my blessings with a GF accepting a 2.20 by 2.20 speaker prototype and a nuclear plant of a server prototype.

 

[microstrip]

You conveniently ignored the 2nd part of my post where I'm discussing a design . ALL turntable bearings are dated including AS2000's please name one current production tt with a totally new and innovative bearing. If it's a turning table it's been done long before but maybe I missed a couple that you're aware of, don't say the Mag-Lev .

Yes, I ignored it - just the usual talk on compromises versus dampening / non dampening.

In the high-end the innovation is in the details, not on the basic design. Since SME advertised in Wireless World showing an hand rotating an LP in the tip of a pencil nothing new.

But you accept that the people from the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory innovated when they played the first recording of the history of sound reproduction? Or that floating platter mercury turntable (the whole platter was the bearing) was innovative?

 

[microstrip]

(....) What I wonder is whether or not this new table, with it's new arm and all the modern technology advancements so well described, playing a Lyra Atlas Lambda cartridge will actually sound better than a vintage Micro Seiki with a vintage SME 3012R tonearm playing a nice Neumann cartridge. (...)

Peter,

Good summary post, but I ask the inconvenient but critical question. What are you exactly meaning by "actually sound better"?

The one most people prefer? The one that sounds closer to the master tape? The one that cancels pops and clicks more effectively? Just the one that reminds us more of the last concert we went?

IMHO some people are obsessed by ranking and forget about the true objective of the high-end - getting from stereo more than usual for individual enjoyment of listeners. Asking some one to tell which of these turntables sounds better is meaningless unless you want carry a poll on preference.

 

[microstrip]

Younger people will enjoy far better results with restored vintage, because there are very low distribution and marketing margins involved. The cost of modern high end is more due to the mark ups involved.

Unfortunately the young audiophile has to go through the curve of cheap, expensive, shows, magazines, before gaining experience and understanding the price quality modern vintage spectrum

Unfortunately I do not see not such a thing as a restored vintage quality market of reasonable relevance. IMHO restored vintage is mostly a DIY affair, that needs a lot of time and some expertise.

Do you have a list of sites of people selling quality restored vintage with prices?

 

[ddk]

Yes, I ignored it - just the usual talk on compromises versus dampening / non dampening.

I know, you were just looking to bitch about my response when you already knew that I didn't discuss it because I don't want to share it!

In the high-end the innovation is in the details, not on the basic design.

Details matter but that doesn't mean innovation in and of itself. We need to define innovation if end result is worse or no better than what it's supposed to surpass.

Since SME advertised in Wireless World showing an hand rotating an LP in the tip of a pencil nothing new.

Or the cactus needle you can still play records with it, but that was my whole point in principle record playback hasn't changed.

But you accept that the people from the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory innovated when they played the first recording of the history of sound reproduction?

Wasn't the first recording French from mid 1800s?

Or that floating platter mercury turntable (the whole platter was the bearing) was innovative?

I didn't know about this one, certainly interesting!

david

 

[Lee]

Younger people will enjoy far better results with restored vintage, because there are very low distribution and marketing margins involved. The cost of modern high end is more due to the mark ups involved.

Unfortunately the young audiophile has to go through the curve of cheap, expensive, shows, magazines, before gaining experience and understanding the price quality modern vintage spectrum

Depends on budget. I would make the case that some Maggies and some electronics is a good place to start...or even KEF Wireless LS50s.

We often list suggested systems in TAS at various price points.

 

[Lee]

Of course materials affect sound but what has changed in record players?

Sound quality better or worse has zero to do with the topic, is this all you have because you're wrong here too. A POS is still a POS no matter how you layer it, don't confuse novelty with good design or innovation.

david

Hmm, I'm not sure I made any claim about POS gear above. You have an Air Force 1 in Listening Room 1. That table evolved with many refinements from Nishikawa's experience with Micro-Seiki. My point is that the execution and evolution and better parts quality has led to better sound today. That's really all I am saying.

 

[Lee]

As an early TAS subscriber who began with Issue #2, I have a suggestion. There were some pieces in the early days where reviewers recommended systems at different price points. This was in the CJ PV-5 days (1980s) since I recall it appeared in a number of recommended systems. Those pieces were always interesting and I re-read them a number of times. I suggest doing something similar in today’s TAS.

In more recent years, TAS has become more disposable. As one poster in this thread described, I glance through the contents page of each new issue when it arrives, read any review that is in my fields of interest (usually none), and then spend an hour or so that evening reading a few other reviews, and it then goes in the trash. That’s quite different from the old days when I scoured each word of each review and kept all the back issues for future reference. Kinda sad.

You need to check the back pages of the magazine because we often put recommended systems at different price levels in the back.

Our subscriber base is growing every year so we feel that most readers are enjoying our content.

 

[bonzo75]

Depends on budget. I would make the case that some Maggies and some electronics is a good place to start...or even KEF Wireless LS50s.

We often list suggested systems in TAS at various price points.

Totally agree here. As are Martin Logans and quads.

 

[bonzo75]

Unfortunately I do not see not such a thing as a restored vintage quality market of reasonable relevance. IMHO restored vintage is mostly a DIY affair, that needs a lot of time and some expertise.

Do you have a list of sites of people selling quality restored vintage with prices?

These are mentioned in many posts and articles. The point is for someone who has put in as many hours and money in the hobby as you research should not be an issue. If this was a guy who did non audio most of the time and occasionally just gave a call to a dealer to come and install, I would understand

 

[ddk]

Hmm, I'm not sure I made any claim about POS gear above. You have an Air Force 1 in Listening Room 1. That table evolved with many refinements from Nishikawa's experience with Micro-Seike. My point is that the execution and evolution and better parts quality has led to better sound today. That's really all I am saying.

Not a good example Lee, cosmetics aside there's hardly any daylight between the original MS and the AF variant design wise.
Sure better parts can sometimes lead to better sound but not alway and we weren't discussing SQ, we're too far apart on that for a starting point.

david
Edit- To avoid any misunderstanding I want to clarify that my comment isn't a knock on AF1 simply that the MS is a timeless design and it's a good thing for the AF1.