Stepping up in Pass Labs Amp series - aka 600.8 vs 200.8

kmyl

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Jul 16, 2020
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Hello everyone,

I am considering my next upgrade to match my system and my overall environment. So far my system lies in a ‘playroom’ with all proper acoustic treatment and consists of:

Speakers: Focal Maestro Evo
Preamp: Pass XP22
Power Amp: Pass 350.8
Dac: Rockna Wavedream signature
Turntable: Kuzma Stab Reference 2, Kuzma 4 Point tonearm, Zyx 4D ultimate
Phono stage: Audia Flight Phono S

I am considering to upgrade my power amp to monoblocks. I am concerned if I should upgrade to 600.8 or go big in class A with 200.8. Yes, I consider to remain with Pass Labs family.

Anybody with direct experience with both amps to suggest and provide insights?

thanks in advance.
 
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Mikem53

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Oct 1, 2020
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How loud do you listen to your music ? You might be listening in class A most Of the time already. I prefer the class A sound Personally.. My friend uses the 350 with his soundlab setup and it sounds wonderful..
 

kmyl

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Jul 16, 2020
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Usually i am hearing around 80-85db. i am mostly concerned on not the generic class A/AB topology but most on implementation of these two amplifiers relevant to my speakers.
 

Mikem53

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Oct 1, 2020
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Usually i am hearing around 80-85db. i am mostly concerned on not the generic class A/AB topology but most on implementation of these two amplifiers relevant to my speakers.
Try calling Mark Summat at Reno Hifi. He is an authorized distributor of Pass labs and very knowledgeable and helpful when it comes to matching components with Pass gear. He has lots of experience and good advice, IME.
 

morricab

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Apr 25, 2014
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Usually i am hearing around 80-85db. i am mostly concerned on not the generic class A/AB topology but most on implementation of these two amplifiers relevant to my speakers.
You don't actually need much power as Focal speakers are pretty sensitive. i would consider as low as 30 watts (and therefore open to tube amps as well as SS).
 
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kmyl

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sure. will do. i am collecting though other views on this here ;)
 

Site7000

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Jul 16, 2011
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sure. will do. i am collecting though other views on this here ;)
Consider that the X600.8 operates in Class A up to 100 watts and Class AB the rest of the way to 600. The next highest powered Pass amp, the X350.8, only goes up to 18 watts in Class A. That's still quite high compared to almost any other Class-AB amp, but with the X600.8's crazy 100 watts, it's extremely unlikely you will ever leave Class-A. That's 20db above whatever the efficiency rating is for your speakers. But it's nice to know the headroom can go even higher. Your Focals could handle all the power you throw at them. Two other thoughts, I would expect the X600.8 to run a little cooler than the XA200.8 and the price of the X600 is only $27k versus $42k for the XA-200.
 

RDSChicago

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Nov 12, 2013
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Sounds like either would be a sideways move or just marginally better than what you have In exchange for the same sound signature you’re already enjoying. Easy for me to say as most of us can’t be this objective when assessing our own audio needs and wants.
 

Site7000

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Jul 16, 2011
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Interesting. Because "100 watts Class A" was so striking, I went back and checked again. Especially so since the early review of the X600.8 in PartTimeAudiophile specifies only 50 watts max in Class A. So what gives?

It turns out I was reading correctly from the official spec sheet, which includes all the Pass models. However, I noticed the XA specs show "leaves Class A rating" at twice their rated Class-A output. That's very odd for Class A. Either Pass is radically understating their ratings or there is some confusion going on about whether leaving Class A relates to 2 channels, rather than 1. Fortunately, the difference is minor. The worst case scenario is that each X600.8 leaves Class A at 50 watts. That's still an amazingly high level and only only 3 decibels less than 100 watts.

To see the difference, if the figure was actually 100 watts per amp and the speakers had an efficiency level of 93 decibels/watt, the amp would leave Class A at 113 decibels and top out at about 120 decibels in Class A/B! If you cut that output in half, you are only dropping 3 decibels. In either case, both the Class A and Class A/B maximums will play well above what you are going to play in a real room at a continuous (non-peak) level. The X600.8 is a magnificent beast, no matter how you look at it!
 
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thedudeabides

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What's currently wrong with your amps (what are you missing) and what do you expect to improve on by "moving up"?
 
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kmyl

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What's currently wrong with your amps (what are you missing) and what do you expect to improve on by "moving up"?
I am definitely enjoying sound signature. What I miss is authority, control and make sound live ( it’s kind of lifeless and I assume because of speakers being difficult to manage?).
 

BlueFox

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I have the X600.5 amps and I never get out of Class A. When the needles move it is unbearably loud in my living room. I love the sound these amps and my speakers create.
 

thedudeabides

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Your speaker is 93db efficient. The issue is not sufficient power needed to control your speakers. FWIW, I've had my Pas Labs amp (I'm also a big fan of the brand) for some 12 years. Awhile ago, I auditioned the X350.5 through Reno Hi Fi who I highly recommend. I ended up returning it. I've also read that some folks prefer the .5 series versus the .8 citing that the .8 has better bass but is more "laid back / less upfront" when compared to the .5. I would speculate that you have a personal preference / synergy issue. Also, all Pass Labs amp have a slightly different sonic flavor. Have you tried adjusting your speaker position? Good luck.
 
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kmyl

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Thanks thedudeabides. My overall ‘complain’ is around I get a lifeless sound which is not related to tonality or sound signature that I find it to be of my preference. I have treated my listening room with room acoustics with a lot of diffusion to keep the room as live as possible (RT60 is around 0.5sec which is appropriate for the size of the room) while being correct for music reproduction - engineered by three different acoustic engineers.
 

thedudeabides

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Hi kmyl,

I now understand that you find the sound boring and uninvolving. I assume slow transient response, lack of punch, detail etc. Maybe your room is over treated and / or over engineered.

My bias. I am not a big fan of room treatments although I know many are. My listening room is my living room and I don't find these types of devices very attractive. Just for giggles, try removing some of the acoustic panels (especially the absorbent variety) and see what it sounds like. Should be easy to do and assess the impacts. If you don't like, you can always put them back in place. Mike Lavigne did that in his custom listening room (over damped ceiling panels and other room acoustic changes) and it made a large, positive difference.
 
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kmyl

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Jul 16, 2020
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room's acoustic is pretty much balanced and mostly on the alive side. It's not my room overdamped. Tested with and without treatment. I sense that i need more drive, authority and control of the woofers. Hence, i am orienting myself towards a more powerful amplifier. I am still concerning though which option will be best as a next step going forward.
 

Mikem53

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Oct 1, 2020
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room's acoustic is pretty much balanced and mostly on the alive side. It's not my room overdamped. Tested with and without treatment. I sense that i need more drive, authority and control of the woofers. Hence, i am orienting myself towards a more powerful amplifier. I am still concerning though which option will be best as a next step going forward.
I found that out as well through the years, sensitivity with multiple drivers/crossover require a good amount of current to come “alive” and sound full. I would think that your current amps would be more than adequate. I’ve heard others say that the .5 amps were harder hitting than the .8’s. Pass still will build a .5 amp for those wanting one. I will be interested to see what works for you.. enjoy the thrill of the chase!
 
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Jpspock

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Choose between X or XA is personal taste. They do no not sound the same. I listened to both, and thé 350 has a total different signature than à pair of 600. The same for a Xa 100, 160 or 200. I lived during 7years with 100.5 and Now with 160.5, you recognize the class A sound Pass in the mid but treble and bass are different. So you need to listen and chose what you prefer.
 

thedudeabides

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room's acoustic is pretty much balanced and mostly on the alive side. It's not my room overdamped. Tested with and without treatment. I sense that i need more drive, authority and control of the woofers. Hence, i am orienting myself towards a more powerful amplifier. I am still concerning though which option will be best as a next step going forward.
Looking at your avatar, pulling the speakers further "into" the room so that the front of the speaker is four to five feet from the back wall (assuming that's an option) could attenuate bass / room interactions and reap huge improvements in those areas that you currently find lacking.
 
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