Sublime Sound

[PeterA]

The only way that I know that one cord can make bass more extended and tighter than another cord is by delivering more power to the amplifier more quickly. This is in contrast to signal interconnects which can act as filters on the audio signal itself. Let me know if you think I’m wrong about this.

Delivering AC power in an unimpeded manner would seem to be one of the basic tenets of power cords generally, and doing so is Shunyata’s stated goal. Your observation suggests that they are in fact succeeding in doing this better than your preferred CC.

I understand that you don’t like the resulting sound in your system, and that you personally prefer an alternative which leads to what you regard as a more natural bass. De gustibus, etc.

But your preference does not really support a conclusion that CC “beats” what, from a power delivery perspective, would appear to be a better engineered alternative. (“ a $25 cheap Chinese power cord beats a highly developed and researched power cord costing 10 times as much…”).

I think it may be more accurate to say that in your system you prefer a tweak which apparently limits the energy available to the amp because the resulting bass seems less hi-fi to you.

But as you well know, others, with other systems and preferences, appreciate Shunyata’s power delivery characteristics relative to stock cords.

Vlad, It was not just me, but three of us who heard this. The Shunyata cords in my system accentuated the high and low frequencies. They sounded not natural and fake. I referred to it as sounding "hifi". I could just as easily use the term "fake". I don't know what this has to do with power delivery, but something is going on. When timpani becomes too focused and cymbal crashes become too bright and they both move forward in the soundstage to be highlighted and not where they sit on the stage in real life, the power cord is doing something it should not be. On the jazz cut, everything sounded soft and dull. Ian described it as "dark". The Shunyata caused "accents" and spotlights on the classical and they killed the sound on the jazz, just as they did in Ian's system.

We heard something similar with the NR cords in Ian's system, even on his front end components that don't need all that current. I am reporting what we heard in my system. System context and listener preferences are important. If you like the Shunyata, congratulations to you for your choice. I was doing a favor for Ian by testing these in my system. And I chose to share my impressions here on my system page. Ian wanted to know if his power cords cause a coloration. We got our answer.

The Shunyata may or may not deliver more current compared to the CCs to the amps. I do not know. The problem is, that they also do some harm to the signal, at least IMO. So when I say the CCs "beat" the Shunyatas, I am saying they sounded better to the three of us in my system and also in Ian's system at a different time. I understand if you have no interest in trying the Ching Cheng cords in your system. Ack has no interest either. That is fine. We all make our choices and try to enjoy our systems.

I guess if the Shunyatas were the standard for power delivery, there would not need to be the different models of power cords and they would not need to be improved every few years with updated versions. Perhaps the better versions provide more power delivery and fewer colorations. I really do not know.

 

[Folsom]

Aah, but then you have Shunyata's argument regarding DTCD (dynamic transient current delivery):

https://shunyata.com/technology-guide/

On paper that looks fun but real world AC is very different. In fact more resistance can sometimes be the best solution.

Also the scale is conveniently gone from the comparison between theirs and stock.

 

[Al M.]

I've been reading Peter's and Al's comments lately here and elsewhere and am perplexed and disappointed at the stuff being written, so I take them with tons of salt; so much so, that their thoughts on this subject mean nothing to me.

I know they don't, and that's fine.

3) In private, Al emails us about his own "Shunyata Revelation" on his DAC, albeit with a much more expensive NR-type cord. Nonetheless, I am stunned at the lack of balanced and accurate opinion writing, leaving out many many other details that I just don't care to write about right now

Not just in private, I have mentioned it on my system thread too. Nonetheless, that was my only good Shunyata experience so far, and I have heard many comparisons over the years.

6) Peter has proven to me beyond a reasonable doubt that he likes some electronic noise seeeping into his system, which can cover up some issues. By contrast, he refers to the resulting sound as "natural". As we both heard while at his place last time - with the CC cords in place, room treatments removed, Burly wire, plus new phono (but not preamp) - there was nothing natural about the sound, though there were some good moments. Personally, I was mostly cringing and grinding my teeth

So as I said above: lots of salt... but I accept the fact that he likes what he likes.

And as I have pointed out many times, this was at a time when his sound was really not good. I personally didn't like it either at that particular moment, and thought overall it was a remarkable step back. From then on it became better, and better, until it is where it is now.

The thing about the electronic noise is nonsense, but we will forever disagree on this one. That's fine. If you want to keep relitigating this forever, I'll be game forever.

 

[ddk]

On paper that looks fun but real world AC is very different. In fact more resistance can sometimes be the best solution.

Sonically I find that to be true with ground networks that we measured!

david

 

[Al M.]

On paper that looks fun but real world AC is very different. In fact more resistance can sometimes be the best solution.

Also the scale is conveniently gone from the comparison between theirs and stock.

Yeah, it's snake oil gobbledygook.

They don't:
a) provide data on in-wall-wiring. If that has less DTCD capability, then their cable means nothing. No chain is better than its weakest link.
b) they don't provide data on how real world power supplies are improved by their power cord. Lacking these data, what does it all mean?

So yeah, snake oil, in my book.

Here is a write-up that I don't quite understand because I am not that technical, but perhaps you can help me with either affirming or debunking:

"They make two assumptions here that are completely ludicrous.

"1. Your AC outlet behaves like a constant voltage source. This is completely untrue. There is significant inductance in your AC lines that would damp current pulses.
2. The shape of the current input pulse to a switching converter has an effect on the output voltage and therefore the output waveforms of whatever the converter is supplying. This is also untrue since switching converters have energy storage elements, either inductors or capacitors (most often both) that smooth the output. They are designed with a target ripple in the output voltage as part of their specifications. Total energy delivered is what the converter cares about, not pulse waveform shape. And they are tightly regulated, meaning if they are not getting the proper energy in a time window, they adjust so that they do.

So they invented a fake situation where they make a difference that has no impact."

From:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ds/shunyata-dtcd-in-real-life-scenario.16641/

 

[ack]

And as I have pointed out many times, this was at a time when his sound was really not good. I personally didn't like it either at that particular moment, and thought overall it was a remarkable step back. From then on it became better, and better, until it is where it is now.

The thing about the electronic noise is nonsense, but we will forever disagree on this one. That's fine. If you want to keep relitigating this forever, I'll be game forever.

"Remarkable" step back indeed - yet, Peter has been talking about "natural" sound for over a year now. The word has lost all meaning, in his writings. Regarding noise, yes, it's in the power line, and many people just let it all through into their equipment; some apparently like the effect. Peter has proven to me that he does not know how to interpret the effects of removing noise, and how to properly remove noise in a holistic and meaningful way.

 

[Al M.]

"Remarkable" step back indeed - yet, Peter has been talking about "natural" sound for over a year now.

I'll let everyone compare your statement with what I just wrote in the post you replied to. Every reader can decide for themselves if your are stubbornly ignoring data points or not.

 

[VLS]

Yeah, it's snake oil gobbledygook.

In your own view, what characteristics might cause one piece of wire to produce "more extended, tighter bass" than another piece of wire? I'm genuinely curious.

 

[ack]

I'll let everyone compare your statement with what I just wrote in the post you replied to. Every reader can decide for themselves if your are stubbornly ignoring data points or not.

Not sure what data I am ignoring; you mentioned a "remarkable step back" back then when I also thought the same - therefore, I am agreeing with you. You are saying it has improved since, and I am responding that Peter has been talking about natural sound for a very long time, including back when we both apparently thought it was a "remarkable step back". Exactly because he's been talking about natural sound all the way back when we both thought the sound was not good, is why I also said the word has lost its meaning in his writings. Perhaps the sound is better now, and I have no data, but also no reason to believe it at face value either

 

[Folsom]

Yeah, it's snake oil gobbledygook.

They don't:
a) provide data on in-wall-wiring. If that has less DTCD capability, then their cable means nothing. No chain is better than its weakest link.
b) they don't provide data on how real world power supplies are improved by their power cord. Lacking these data, what does it all mean?

So yeah, snake oil, in my book.

Here is a write-up that I don't quite understand because I am not that technical, but perhaps you can help me with either affirming or debunking:

"They make two assumptions here that are completely ludicrous.

"1. Your AC outlet behaves like a constant voltage source. This is completely untrue. There is significant inductance in your AC lines that would damp current pulses.
2. The shape of the current input pulse to a switching converter has an effect on the output voltage and therefore the output waveforms of whatever the converter is supplying. This is also untrue since switching converters have energy storage elements, either inductors or capacitors (most often both) that smooth the output. They are designed with a target ripple in the output voltage as part of their specifications. Total energy delivered is what the converter cares about, not pulse waveform shape. And they are tightly regulated, meaning if they are not getting the proper energy in a time window, they adjust so that they do.

So they invented a fake situation where they make a difference that has no impact."

From:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ds/shunyata-dtcd-in-real-life-scenario.16641/

A. I'm not sure I'd go saying that. Generally speaking the Romex configuration is good (but maybe not ideal) but typically not reproducible out of the wall so you have to come up with other configurations that may or may not be as good but are at least flexible. Sometimes you could be damping it more or degrading it at the end for a benefit sonically. So in general I don't subscribe to the talk about 'last few feet' or 'weakest link'. One only needs to hear a few power cables to know it's not trivial.

B. In a bit of fairness real world examples are basically impossible, but supporting arguments for them is not. Feedback on the quality of sound also is not.

When it comes to ASV I would exert extreme caution into what you read as being anywhere near fact or good fact... The super smart guys that hang out on DIYaudio aren't posting there all the time...

1. I'm not sure why he's approaching the argument that way. Technically it goes up and down between 120v and 0v 60 times a second! But also, yes, it isn't a constant peak of 120v. A lot of things tug on the line and lower the voltage periodically. The inductance exists yes but it isn't high around 60hz. However the effects of the inductance on higher frequencies can affect the current at 60hz. So I wouldn't word it like that because were you to damp the high frequencies you'd have more current at 60hz, but damping at 60hz would be less current. It's complicated !

2. Yes and no, this depends on how long the switching device has a lack of voltage. Storage devices have to be excessively large to make up for extended dips. But also correct that sometimes it doesn't matter if it's within a certain wheelhouse. If you're on 230v you could dip all day long towards 120v and you'd have the same output voltage (unless you were using alot more power, you get more efficiency from 230v on SMPS). But if the devices has to operate at a min of 110v and it keeps dipping to 90v, you may see some fluctuation. However not all devices run SMPS, in fact in the high end it's nearly taboo. So seeing examples with traditional LPS's would be the status quo for what to expect. However LPS's are not always easy to represent or account for because they're a low impedance device that plays funny with electricity...



Shunyata isn't ignorant of all of this... they're just trying to show there is a difference objectively. However we all know there is for sure a difference sonically, except "non-believers". So I wouldn't go as far as snake-oil or anything like that. I'd just say that I don't like what their products for when I've heard them - YMMV.

The real trap is believing every "objective" difference will equal a sound improvement... or vice versa that they're fake objective improvements therefor they don't equal a sound improvement. That's one of the BIGGEST problems in audio, totally unqualified beliefs in objective "improvements" being the substantiation of sound improvement. It's so strong people think kitty litter antenna boxes have to be an objective improvement instead of a subjective improvement with negative objective results.... It's so strong their brains totally melt down with dysfunction trying to "prove" with philosophy that there has to be an improvement objectively.

 

[PeterA]

I've been reading Peter's and Al's comments lately here and elsewhere and am perplexed and disappointed at the stuff being written, so I take them with tons of salt; so much so, that their thoughts on this subject mean nothing to me. Here's what I have seen so far:

1) Peter is using 14awg cords on his amps; I believe this is contrary to our private emails which state he wants at least 10awg in the walls, if I recall correctly. Peter, correct me if I am wrong here. Are your in-wall wires also 14awg or thicker?

2) Al says "this was a quick comparison and hardly a real shootout", and Ian "It was also a VERY quick comparison and hardly representative of a Ching Cheng vs Shunyata shootout" - thus, not a worthy comparison then, to even be talking about; just another hasty set of conclusions, and I have seen a lot of evidence of that lately

3) In private, Al emails us about his own "Shunyata Revelation" on his DAC, albeit with a much more expensive NR-type cord. Nonetheless, I am stunned at the lack of balanced and accurate opinion writing, leaving out many many other details that I just don't care to write about right now

4) As micro wrote, and as I have written to all internally (and as I you also believe I think), cords and power management in general have to be addressed holistically. A cord here and a cord there won't do anything meaningful

5) Peter has tried a number of cords, and says they all exhibited similar behavior in his system. Nowhere in his writings does his - even once - suggest that these experiments may be actually exposing issues in his system and investigate further. Nonetheless, I understand he likes what he likes, though to me, he does not approach this subject in a careful and pragmatic way

6) Peter has proven to me beyond a reasonable doubt that he likes some electronic noise seeeping into his system, which can cover up some issues. By contrast, he refers to the resulting sound as "natural". As we both heard while at his place last time - with the CC cords in place, room treatments removed, Burly wire, plus new phono (but not preamp) - there was nothing natural about the sound, though there were some good moments. Personally, I was mostly cringing and grinding my teeth

So as I said above: lots of salt... but I accept the fact that he likes what he likes.

Tasos, it sure does not seem as though my thoughts mean nothing to you. You are here and wasting your time on my system thread. You read my comments in group emails. My in wall cabling is 8 AWG as mentioned many times. I am trying to get my electrician to install a 10AWG alternative for comparison. Thicker is not always better. A member here may write a paper to be published in TAS explaining this. He designed and built my ICs and speaker cables. You have not heard those. The JPS may have colorations too just as the Furutech IEC connector did. I will compare the schemes and decide which sounds better.

Yes, this power cord comparison was quick. A longer comparison would not change my mind. I made long term comparisons with power cords, and I heard similar effects. Anyway, I was simply doing a favor for our friend Ian. He brought the cords to my house without warning over the weekend. He was satisfied with the results. So were Al and I. We can discuss the results and impressions as we please. Who are you to tell us it is not worth discussing? I, or someone in our group, have offered to bring the Ching Cheng cables to your house for comparison and you refuse to plug them into your system. You refer to them as "junk". It is your right to avoid making the comparison. You bought many of these new Shunyata cords and seem very pleased. I congratulate you just as I did Vlad. I'm glad you are happy.

 

[ack]

Who are you to tell us it is not worth discussing?

No one said it's not worth discussing. Read again

 

[bonzo75]

You read my comments in group emails. .

Can I be added to group emails? Sounds like fun

 

[PeterA]

No one said it's not worth discussing. Read again

Ack: " thus, not a worthy comparison then, to even be talking about;"

 

[ack]

Ack: " thus, not a worthy comparison then, to even be talking about;"

When someone says something that another one thinks it is fundamentally problematic, the next thing he may probably say is "it's not worth talking about." That's basic criticism - it is dismissive. You are posting on an open forum, but like with everyone else, the writ is sometimes subject to some criticism.

 

[Al M.]

A. I'm not sure I'd go saying that. Generally speaking the Romex configuration is good (but maybe not ideal) but typically not reproducible out of the wall so you have to come up with other configurations that may or may not be as good but are at least flexible. Sometimes you could be damping it more or degrading it at the end for a benefit sonically. So in general I don't subscribe to the talk about 'last few feet' or 'weakest link'. One only needs to hear a few power cables to know it's not trivial.

Thanks for answering my questions.

But has anyone ever measured DTCD in the wall? I'm sure Shunyata did, so why don't they publish the results? What are they afraid of?

B. In a bit of fairness real world examples are basically impossible, but supporting arguments for them is not. Feedback on the quality of sound also is not.

If it's impossible, then why do Shunyata make the claim that in their cords DTCD matters?

When it comes to ASV I would exert extreme caution into what you read as being anywhere near fact or good fact... The super smart guys that hang out on DIYaudio aren't posting there all the time...

Sure, that's why I asked you for your opinion.

2. Yes and no, this depends on how long the switching device has a lack of voltage. Storage devices have to be excessively large to make up for extended dips. But also correct that sometimes it doesn't matter if it's within a certain wheelhouse. If you're on 230v you could dip all day long towards 120v and you'd have the same output voltage (unless you were using alot more power, you get more efficiency from 230v on SMPS). But if the devices has to operate at a min of 110v and it keeps dipping to 90v, you may see some fluctuation. However not all devices run SMPS, in fact in the high end it's nearly taboo. So seeing examples with traditional LPS's would be the status quo for what to expect. However LPS's are not always easy to represent or account for because they're a low impedance device that plays funny with electricity...

Well, then Shunyata would have to come up anyway with measurements that show LPS's are influenced for the better. They don't get to wiggle out of this.

Shunyata isn't ignorant of all of this... they're just trying to show there is a difference objectively. However we all know there is for sure a difference sonically, except "non-believers". So I wouldn't go as far as snake-oil or anything like that. I'd just say that I don't like what their products for when I've heard them - YMMV.

The real trap is believing every "objective" difference will equal a sound improvement... or vice versa that they're fake objective improvements therefor they don't equal a sound improvement. That's one of the BIGGEST problems in audio, totally unqualified beliefs in objective "improvements" being the substantiation of sound improvement.

Indeed, that is a problem. Shunyata measure in isolation, standing on its own, an objective difference, so what? What does it mean? Without a context within which it is proven that it matters in the real world it is pseudo-science -- snake oil. Without providing measurements about DTCD in the wall and impact on real world power supplies they could never get their claims that their power cords matter published in a scientific journal. They would be laughed at by reviewers. So why should I trust their "scientific" data?

As a scientist myself, albeit not in this field (I am a biochemist), I know how the scientific process works. Shunyata's claims don't satisfy it.

You can make some isolated measurements, certainly. That is probably what their patents are based upon. Yet you don't get to make some measurements and then claim that they matter in the context they are claimed to matter, without backing up the claims with data.

 

[PeterA]

I like Peter's video of that Scheherazade very much too. It is more than good enough to stop Kedar bothering Peter about his Magico.

Tang, all of my videos include five "junk" cheap Chinese Ching Cheng power cords too. Do you think it is more than good enough to stop Tasos from bothering me about my CCs? Scrap that. Some do not believe we can learn anything from videos.

 

[PeterA]

In your own view, what characteristics might cause one piece of wire to produce "more extended, tighter bass" than another piece of wire? I'm genuinely curious.

In my view, VLS, it might be one wire characteristic that shunts or attenuates harmonic content or information, creating an emphasis on certain lower notes. The bass was overly accented and focused, IMO. I heard similar effects with my Tube Traps and Vibraplanes. These devices filtered out information which in turn altered my perception of bass quality. In this case specifically, for me it was about bass quality, not bass quantity.

What specifically in the metal composition, the weave, the casing, the connectors, the coatings, I have no idea. But there is something going on. And these Ching Cheng do in fact sound different from the Pass stock cords too, so I have tried to not describe them as "stock" cords.

 

[VLS]

In my view, VLS, it might be one wire characteristic that shunts or attenuates harmonic content or information, creating an emphasis on certain lower notes.

Thanks Peter, but this doesn’t really answer the question: *how* a power cord can actually accomplish this. Unlike an interconnect, it can’t shape the audio band frequency response directly by, say, attenuating or emphasizing particular frequencies, so how can it indirectly affect the relative prominence of the bass?

There are (at least) two plausible explanations for the bass difference which you heard:

1) Each PC’s construction and materials affect power delivery – how current and voltage behave over time, during the amplifier’s power supply duty cycle, and in the context of various musical signal demands. Moving woofer coils further and more rapidly requires greater reserves of energy so this would seem to be the most obvious and direct way of affecting bass.

But I am informed that power delivery considerations are apparently snake oil, so that leaves noise and distortion:

2) Noise passes through the PC, and the choice of metal, dielectric, and connectors might distort the AC waveform. In the context of interconnects, “2” is obviously very important because the ICs act directly on the signal. But in PCs these distortions aren’t mixed into the audio signal directly, but somehow have to act on that signal indirectly via the power supply. Can this somehow affect the perception of bass? Maybe. But if so, explaining how this would be possible is much harder than proving “1”.

One could trivially prove "1" by successively testing PC made of increasingly thinner wire. Does anyone doubt that at some point the bass would disappear? In short, Occam would suggest “1” as the more obvious and compelling explanation of the bass differences you heard. For this reason, I think it may be worth considering Tasos’ suggestion that maybe the Shunyata PC is in fact “correct” in the way it is presenting the bass, and to the extent that is not pleasing, it’s revealing system issues downstream.

 

[Folsom]

Thanks Peter, but this doesn’t really answer the question: *how* a power cord can actually accomplish this. Unlike an interconnect, it can’t shape the audio band frequency response directly by, say, attenuating or emphasizing particular frequencies, so how can it indirectly affect the relative prominence of the bass?

There are (at least) two plausible explanations for the bass difference which you heard:

1) Each PC’s construction and materials affect power delivery – how current and voltage behave over time, during the amplifier’s power supply duty cycle, and in the context of various musical signal demands. Moving woofer coils further and more rapidly requires greater reserves of energy so this would seem to be the most obvious and direct way of affecting bass.

But I am informed that power delivery considerations are apparently snake oil, so that leaves noise and distortion:

2) Noise passes through the PC, and the choice of metal, dielectric, and connectors might distort the AC waveform. In the context of interconnects, “2” is obviously very important because the ICs act directly on the signal. But in PCs these distortions aren’t mixed into the audio signal directly, but somehow have to act on that signal indirectly via the power supply. Can this somehow affect the perception of bass? Maybe. But if so, explaining how this would be possible is much harder than proving “1”.

One could trivially prove "1" by successively testing PC made of increasingly thinner wire. Does anyone doubt that at some point the bass would disappear? In short, Occam would suggest “1” as the more obvious and compelling explanation of the bass differences you heard. For this reason, I think it may be worth considering Tasos’ suggestion that maybe the Shunyata PC is in fact “correct” in the way it is presenting the bass, and to the extent that is not pleasing, it’s revealing system issues downstream.

Why do you think bass will be first to go if shrinking wire size?