I make my audio decisions very slowly and very deliberately, usually with the benefit of direct experience with a component under consideration. Right now I do not have the budget nor the inclination to try anything different. I can not predict the future, things may change.
Sublime Sound
- Thread starter PeterA
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I make my audio decisions very slowly and very deliberately, usually with the benefit of direct experience with a component under consideration. Right now I do not have the budget nor the inclination to try anything different. I can not predict the future, things may change.
I agree with you, Ack. Your speakers sound very dynamic to me, though the dynamics have a different character than those on the Q3, or Mini II. Perhaps it is the range of dynamics as Caesar mentions, but there is more weight, more body with a dynamic cone. Of course, my experience is very limited with panel speakers, and you may know much more. Someone also recently told me that Magicos have a reputation for not being very dynamic. I can't image how anyone would reach such a conclusion unless the amps or the set up were not well sorted out. My Mini IIs and Q3s, as set up in my room with Pass Class A power are extremely dynamic.
That depends. I have heard on Ack's system the brass instruments on the direct-to-disc LP 'For Duke' with extreme 'balls' (or 'cojones'
). But I have not always heard the same tonal balance in his system.Agree.
I would like to take a moment to thank three of my close audio buddies, Albrecht (Al M.), Ian (Madfloyd), and Tasos, (Ack), with whom I form the informal society which we call the Boston Audio Group. Over the years, I have learned much from them about music reproduction, specific recordings and new music, live music, and how to appreciate and move forward in this hobby. We have often disagreed, but we value each other's candor, and in the end, and through our respective approaches, we realize it is all for the same purpose: to better understand what we are doing, and to move forward with our systems to better appreciate and more fully enjoy our music.
During my two week audition period, Al and Ian came over to hear the system and to share their impressions. They made a critical observation about five days into it, that the system had lost its sense of energy, room fill, and emotional impact. In the process of experimenting with different speaker positions, I had moved the speakers too far apart, and I had toed them in too much. I had become too focused and overly impressed with the expansion of the soundstage and what I perceived as greater resolution. This was of course a result of the comparison between the new sound and the sound of the Mini II with which I was so familiar. I lost sight of musical engagement.
Al and Ian sat and listened but did not say much. Then one commented that the sound was rather flat and univovling. I think they were concerned about the decision I was forming because they had really enjoyed the Mini IIs so much. The sound lacked body, weight, impact and tonal richness and color. I remembered back to my system Room Play session with Jim Smith. He demonstrated for me very clearly that to improve those qualities and to make the music more engaging, one needs to move the speakers closer together. We did that, settling on 5" less space between them. Wow, what a difference. Immediately, my two good friends became excited and said something like, "that's more like it." Dynamics, Tone, Presence all took a major step forward. This is what prompted Ian to comment on the Beethoven's Appassionata and Al on 88 Basie Street. There was great rhythm, impact, realism and emotional involvement.
It is odd that I did not notice this before, but only after the changes were made and discussed with each other, did I appreciate the difference. Sometimes it takes the perspective of others to see what is right in front of you. I value their friendship, their candor, and their willingness to speak up. They very possibly prevented me from making a big mistake. I would not have made the progress with my system were it not for the advice and observations of those who have heard my system. I thank them for that.
During my two week audition period, Al and Ian came over to hear the system and to share their impressions. They made a critical observation about five days into it, that the system had lost its sense of energy, room fill, and emotional impact. In the process of experimenting with different speaker positions, I had moved the speakers too far apart, and I had toed them in too much. I had become too focused and overly impressed with the expansion of the soundstage and what I perceived as greater resolution. This was of course a result of the comparison between the new sound and the sound of the Mini II with which I was so familiar. I lost sight of musical engagement.
Al and Ian sat and listened but did not say much. Then one commented that the sound was rather flat and univovling. I think they were concerned about the decision I was forming because they had really enjoyed the Mini IIs so much. The sound lacked body, weight, impact and tonal richness and color. I remembered back to my system Room Play session with Jim Smith. He demonstrated for me very clearly that to improve those qualities and to make the music more engaging, one needs to move the speakers closer together. We did that, settling on 5" less space between them. Wow, what a difference. Immediately, my two good friends became excited and said something like, "that's more like it." Dynamics, Tone, Presence all took a major step forward. This is what prompted Ian to comment on the Beethoven's Appassionata and Al on 88 Basie Street. There was great rhythm, impact, realism and emotional involvement.
It is odd that I did not notice this before, but only after the changes were made and discussed with each other, did I appreciate the difference. Sometimes it takes the perspective of others to see what is right in front of you. I value their friendship, their candor, and their willingness to speak up. They very possibly prevented me from making a big mistake. I would not have made the progress with my system were it not for the advice and observations of those who have heard my system. I thank them for that.
You are very welcome, Peter. And thank you for all your observations and suggestions over the years regarding my system! They have proven invaluable to my progress with it as well.
Also, a Thank You to WBF! We came to know each other through this forum.
Also, a Thank You to WBF! We came to know each other through this forum.
As for speaker set-up, we forgot to mention how it interplayed with the two cartridges that you used, Peter. With the Airtight cartridge the tonal balance and dynamics were also great at the speaker position further out (I haven't heard yet how it is with the current position), while the sound with the MSL cartridge came alive only after we moved the speakers closer together.
What does this mean? It means that when you change gear you may, in some cases, also have to change speaker set-up (!!) in order the get the best sound. Seriously.
What does this mean? It means that when you change gear you may, in some cases, also have to change speaker set-up (!!) in order the get the best sound. Seriously.
Peter did. I haven't heard it yet in the new position, as I said. Am curious about the result.
I am currently listening to the AirTight Supreme. It sounds great at the current speaker position which is about where Al and Ian heard it last with the MSL cartridge. That is with the speakers 5" closer together. I have not gone back to the speakers further apart.
That depends. I have heard on Ack's system the brass instruments on the direct-to-disc LP 'For Duke' with extreme 'balls' (or 'cojones'
Don't forget - my goal is to reproduce the recording, and if it's got balls, you will hear it. If it's thin, you will hear that as well... and so on. It's the price I pay for neutrality.
Al, I would want to experiment with this much more before I reached any conclusions. Even with the AirTight Supreme, I prefer the speakers closer together. I have had the Q3s in my system for just over two weeks. I will be learning about them and how they can be fine tuned, and how my different cartridges sound with them, for months to come.
Don’t be afraid to micro adjust your speaker’s toe. Once you get to really know your speakers, you will end up tweaking them positionally again and again . It took me a long time to get my Wilson’s just right. 1/3” can matter. Almost like dialing in cartridge azimuth by ear.
Yes, of course, this is what I would expect also with the AirTight. Yet it is clear to me that with the MSL cartridge there was a deleterious effect of having the speakers too far apart (again, just 5 inches difference) that was not present to such an extent with the AirTight.
I have a different experience with my Airtight and MSL carts. While I don’t move my speakers, both carts are very alive. I hear a bit different kind of sound presentation, but that I am quite sure comes from tts rather than the carts themselves. The tonal balance is what set them apart. The Airtight has more treble in tone. The MSL has a bit more midbass in comparison. The high on Opus is also a bit more extended. While MSL has minor quicker transient.
Kind regards,
Tang
Hi Ked,
I can’t switch carts for the few months because I have a new phono and more coming in my system. Sticking to carts and tt settings I am familiar with will enable me to really understand how my new equipment sound. Burning time is long with tube equipment too.
I am writing here while I am in my monthly sales meeting..hehe
.Best,
Tang
Thanks Peter for inviting an out of town stranger into your home to experience your system. Was great to meet you and and hear the Q3's. Being able to listen to S3's, M3's and Q3's in a 24hr period was a great learning experience.
Cheers,
Jimmy
Cheers,
Jimmy
If your speakers are already optimally set up to fully accomodate the sound from both cartridges, then this is no suprise. I also expect with Peter's new speaker positioning both of his cartridges to sound very alive.
What I was implying was that there might be situations where the speaker set-up is right on the edge for one type of gear (preamp, amp, source, cables -- or cartridge in this case) and the system with that gear in it sounds good, but then, when you move to other gear, the sound falls apart, while it could be perfectly remedied with a bit of tweaking of the speaker positioning.
If that is the case, then the new gear may be just fine, but it was auditioned under sub-optimal conditions, if the speaker position was not changed.
What, for example, if Peter didn't have the MSL yet, had the speakers in the other position where they sounded fine with the Airtight even though perhaps not optimal, and then tried the MSL in his system? We might have concluded that the MSL is no good. But since Peter already had the MSL cartridge for so long in his system, we knew that it was great, and something else had to be wrong.
***
BTW, as a side note, your Airtight Opus is a different cartridge than what Peter has (Airtight Supreme). In his system, the MSL has more treble extension than his Airtight, at least under the conditions that I have heard so far.
You are most welcome, Jimmy. It was my pleasure. I enjoyed meeting you, hearing your music, and exchanging stories about Magico, Pass, and the dCS Rossini, a superb DAC. Also, sharing your listening impressions from the perspective of a musician, was very enlightening. Enjoy the rest of your trip.
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