Sublime Sound

[microstrip]

Hehe, yes, this was one consideration before I decided to do the audition. But I already know enough about my preferences, what I can afford and what I want in life not to be rattled by such experiences. It was very worthwhile, and I got to hear in some sense how good the Vivaldi stack is. How cool is that?

My comment does not aply to our experiences - for example I did not suffer for the few WAMM sessions - it was not a radical move in a direction ortogonal to my system. In no way it has shown me I am in the wrong way - on the contrary it was educational, as your listening at Goodwins.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Yes you are, but since this is Peter's personal system thread, he does get to control the conversation to some extent, within reasonable boundaries.

But if he basically indicts high end cables, high end cables is weapons free to engage.

Peter can’t have it both ways. He opened the door on his thread.

 

[Al M.]

But if he basically indicts high end cables, high end cables is weapons free to engage.

Peter can’t have it both ways. He opened the door on his thread.

Fair enough. But things can become too granular for them not to be a distraction, unless they are made into their own dedicated thread. I once or twice had to politely ask some to cut off a discussion on my own system thread on similar grounds, and my request was immediately respected, for obvious reasons.

 

[DaveC]

But if he basically indicts high end cables, high end cables is weapons free to engage.

Peter can’t have it both ways. He opened the door on his thread.

And I'm still waiting for any logical argument, instead I get an attempt to silence me because I used my cables as an example to make a completely unrelated point.

This gets back to the fact that manufacturers and dealers are accused of speaking only to promote themselves, are accused of lying and treated less than human.

 

[Al M.]

This gets back to the fact that manufacturers and dealers are accused of speaking only to promote themselves, are accused of lying and treated less than human.

Really?

 

[DaveC]

Really?

Are you seriously telling me I don't feel that way or I'm lying, or? Seriously? I can PM you a bunch of sob stories, lol...

Why don't you post something worthy of discussion?

 

[PeterA]

It's not off topic, it's more about the approach of using CC and saying that it's somehow neutral. An example is made vs my cable in particular, but that's only an example to illustrate that not all audiophile power cables can be lumped together. I've said all I want to say on it anyways.

Just because you don't agree with me doesn't mean you get to control the conversation. I am allowed to make my point like everyone else.

Dave, you can continue to make your points and I am not trying to control the conversation. I'm just politely asking you to discuss your cable design it in your Zenwave threads. You are advertising your design on my system thread. If you want to ignore my request, so be it. I never said all audiophile power cords sound the same. How would I know such a thing?

 

[PeterA]

@PeterA you also didn't respond to my suggestion to measure your room with and without the room acoustic treatments so you understand what might be driving your preference for not having them.

I forgot about that as this thread has gotten rather busy and I have other obligations. A friend measured my room a few years ago with the treatments. The treatments are now gone and in storage. I don't know how to measure it. Yes, I would like to learn but have not made the effort yet. At the moment, I'd rather listen to music and do other things.

 

[DaveC]

Dave, you can continue to make your points and I am not trying to control the conversation. I'm just politely asking you to discuss your cable design it in your Zenwave threads. You are advertising your design on my system thread. If you want to ignore my request, so be it. I never said all audiophile power cords sound the same. How would I know such a thing?

Sorry, no. You're wrong. But you are making my point about how manufacturers are treated. Remember when you told me my response to you was a lie? So you've personally accused me of both lying via PM and anything I say is promoting my product.

There you go Al, there's one example!

How about moving on and not making this about me?

How about any sort of logical, constructive conversation about ANY of the points I've made? You haven't addressed ANYTHING I've said! How can you make these claims and not allow me to defend myself? You're acting like a zealot.

 

[howiebrou]

Posts here consistently remind me about a certain Greek character who gazed into a pond....

 

[DaveC]

I never said all audiophile power cords sound the same. How would I know such a thing?

C'mon, really?

ddk puts all aftermarket cables in one box, claiming they are designed subjectively to be whatever the designer feels sounds good. They always add some "character" as a result.

You put all the cables you tested in one box and said they all moved your system in one direction.

I should have every right to talk about my cables specifically, because this is a mischaracterization of my cables, and many other designers who base their designs primarily on OBJECTIVE criteria, that I have described previously in excruciating detail. The real truth is my cables are designed almost exclusively from best engineering design and materials and are NOT entirely subjectively voiced in the design process.

Or you can go to alibaba and load your cart up with power cables and see which one comes out on top? That's neutral? OK...

Preferences are one thing, I totally respect any preference, but this whole thing about CC cables being this neutral reference and aftermarket audio PCs adding all this "stuff" in comparison is not always true. I have heard aftermarket PCs add a lot to the sound, but I also think any cheap copper cable with molded plugs is going to add a lot too.

The thought that all these classes of aftermarket products for AC power, vibration, acoustics etc. are all across-the-board the same and useless is really my issue here. And I can prove in objective terms why a well designed aftermarket PC, vibration controls, proper room acoustics, etc. will result in you hearing the recording closer to what the artist intended, and that ddk's approach is far more of a tweak than a de-tweak. If you think you have any sort of logical argument why this isn't the case I'd love to hear it.

 

[ddk]

Start a separate thread with everything you what wrote here and I'll address it all again including the non-existent standards that you make up. If you want to use measurements and objectivity as your shield then post a list of at least 10 brands of electronics with individual models that end up with superior measurements over the parameters electronics designer used to design his electronics using your Super Dave power cord vs any reputable industrial pc of adequate gauge. Can you provide us such research to back your engineering claims?

david

Ok, assuming you don't understand what I said already...

You can't lump all high end cables into one box, that's absolutely not correct, but it seems to be a vital aspect of your framing of other power cables vs CC. I have to say, the way you frame the discussion is clever, and suits your goals, but it's inaccurate. Power cables don't all sound the same, that's ridiculous.

While some high end cables may be designed subjectively, many, including mine, are designed to optimal specifications in terms of electrical characteristics and materials used. This is much different from a cable designed entirely by subjective evaluation and tweaking to achieve some sort of end result.

If you compare CC to an optimal reference cable, it'll have materials that are lower quality in terms of metal purity and grain structure, conductivity, dielectric absorption, etc... the CC cable is going to measure far worse vs an optimal cable in all ways.

You can't tell me why you even think CC is that great, can you? I mean, besides your own subjective evaluation? And now they can't even be found anymore, so anyone who wants to be in the "natural, room-filling sound club" needs to acquire these mystical cables...

So you choose CC over everything else, not because it's better, but because you subjectively prefer it, that is the definition of tweaky! It can't be reproduced, it can't be bought again, if that's not tweaky, what is?

And yes, I do seem to prefer cables, and most other things audio, when they improve in objective terms. For example, my ribbon cables have very low inductance and I can hear that in power and speaker cable applications. It's a superior geometry vs what round wires can achieve in terms of LCR.

Hard to believe a cable, vacuum tube amplification and flawed-horn-speaker designer is here defending real engineering approaches to audio, maybe we need to give Amir a temporary reinstatement, lol...






I never said that. Again, you're mischaracterizing what I said. I said they are built to a price point and not specifically intended for audio applications. For just about everything else in the world, CC PC's are identical in performance to any other. Does your toast taste better with CC? More natural browning, a real-bread crust-feel to it?


EDIT: Let's consider the role of a regular PC. It should first and foremost not short out, and be able to be bent repeatedly and not be able to be kinked, and if a kink is forced, not to short out. It should be able to be stepped on, maybe even run over by a car, and not short out.

Everything else is secondary to that. In audio, we have different priorities.

I will agree with you on questionable designs that are not engineering based. For example I've seen power cables, right here on WBF, made using 12g solid-core wire. This can't be bent repeatedly without cracking and the resistance going up. Eventually there will be enough resistance to heat up and possibly short or start a fire. I think this is unacceptable. I also think design decisions that lead to corrosion of the cable because they think it's better subjectively are making poor decisions.

C'mon, really?
ddk puts all aftermarket cables in one box, claiming they are designed subjectively to be whatever the designer feels sounds good. They always add some "character" as a result.

Bullshit! I said many audiophile cables advertise or claim particular attributes for their power cords and deliver on the promise. By design they're the type of product that I subjectively prefer not to own because I don't like coloration or strong character from power cords.

david

 

[PeterA]

Dave, I do not really know what to say. I am not a cable designer, nor do I have the technical training to discuss cable designs with you. I can only discuss what I hear from the power cords that I have had in my system, and in one case, what I heard from the same cord in a friend's familiar system with familiar music. If you want to continue to discuss your cable here, please feel free to do so. I agree with MikeL. I opened the door to the whole cable discussion and can not have it both ways. If you would rather discuss your cable here, that is fine with me. I simple do not have the technical background to discuss power cord designs with a power cord designer.

I simply listened to a bunch of different power cords in my system over the last year or so and kept the ones I liked best. I described the differences I heard in an earlier post. I was told that one of the cords had insufficient settling time, so I listened to it in a different system where it settled, undisturbed for 7-10 days before I heard it. When I did hear it again in that other system, it had the same effect on the music as it did in my system. These were subjective evaluations based on my preferences and my memories of what live acoustic music sounds like to me.

 

[DaveC]

Start a separate thread with everything you what wrote here and I'll address it all again including the non-existent standards that you make up. If you want to use measurements and objectivity as your shield then post a list of at least 10 brands of electronics with individual models that end up with superior measurements over the parameters electronics designer used to design his electronics using your Super Dave power cord vs any reputable industrial pc of adequate gauge. Can you provide us such research to back your engineering claims?

david

Just, no....

 

[DaveC]

Dave, I do not really know what to say. I am not a cable designer, nor do I have the technical training to discuss cable designs with you. I can only discuss what I hear from the power cords that I have had in my system, and in one case, what I heard from the same cord in a friend's familiar system with familiar music. If you want to continue to discuss your cable here, please feel free to do so. I agree with MikeL. I opened the door to the whole cable discussion and can not have it both ways. If you would rather discuss your cable here, that is fine with me. I simple do not have the technical background to discuss power cord designs with a power cord designer.

I simply listened to a bunch of different power cords in my system over the last year or so and kept the ones I liked best. I described the differences I heard in an earlier post. I was told that one of the cords had insufficient settling time, so I listened to it in a different system where it settled, undisturbed for 7-10 days before I heard it. When I did hear it again in that other system, it had the same effect on the music as it did in my system. These were subject evaluations based on my preferences and my memories of what live acoustic music sounds like to me.

I don't really want to, but then you posted what you did, and I gave my rationale for posting what I did. Unless anyone wants to address the points I made I'm totally done!

The points can be about room acoustics or vibration too, not just cables. Preferably not about cables at all at this point.

-------------

So the room... it's pretty likely removing the tube traps made the bass response less linear and increased decay times. If so, would you still characterize the change as a de-tweak?

I wonder, will this approach work for larger rooms where the delay times are going to be much longer and your brain won't necessarily sum all the reflections into a coherent whole?

 

[NorthStar]

I'm reading the last few pages and here's what I can say from personal experience ...
I will never start another thread where I put my time, my energy and my love into it, never ever.
And I'm ready anytime to lose everything I still love in life.

Life is not serious, it's not worth it, its best to have fun, listen to the music, watch some flicks, repair the kitchen's doors, work hard, play hard, make tons of money, spend tons of money, observe the wildlife, sail across the ocean, spend quality time with the family and kids and grand kids, and what's best in life is simplicity in everything.

My threads are for everyone, without zero exception, and the longer they last it's all good, and if they don't last it's all good as well. Everyone is right to be right or wrong, nothing serious. It's all for fun because if it's too serious tears start to fall from the gray sky above.

Sometimes we're good, other times we're lost a little and that's very humanly natural.
This audio business gets us lost sometimes, that's very normal, living to higher standards.

 

[tima]

No politics, please ... Remember Innuos is portuguese and Wadax is spanish. Should they divide markets?

I think your division misrepresents the real situation. For me it looks more like some people want to use their specific experience with a limited range of music to establish their preference, biasing it strongly with audiophile trends.

Others feel that appreciating believable sound is an intrinsic characteristic of humans due to their experience on earth and believe that their own conception, surely complemented by audio experience and knowledge, is as valid as those who claim permanent comparisons with weekly concerts.

Curiously some of those you call the "naturalists" want to be closer to the technicalities of the signal than those who accept that the industry wants to deliver the music message, not the technical aspects.

What ? Are you some kind of Protestant or just upset about having to pay for Europe? <g,d & r>

 

[christoph]

I would like to share some general thoughts about my experience with three specific groups of audio items. These impressions were primarily formed by listening to these products in my own system, but I have heard similar effects with some of them in other familiar systems. I do not want to proclaim a value or imply that I think something is good or bad. I simply want to describe what I hear in my system, how the sound changes to my ears, with these specific products. What I find interesting is that their sonic effect is surprisingly similar to my ears.

1. Room Treatments: ASC Tube Traps, Acoustic Revive RWL-3 Acoustic Conditioner (https://www.highfidelityreview.com/acoustic-revive-rwl-3.html)

For years I have been listening to my system with an assortment of acoustic room treatments. My listening room has a fireplace which protrudes out into the room by about five feet. This creates a chamber behind each speaker at the front of the room which I had found problematic acoustically. At the time, I owned Eggleston Rosa speakers. They had two 6” woofer and two 6” mid range drivers. The extension was specified as 30 Hz or so. In my room, there was a lot of bass energy. The bass was uneven and boomy. A friend suggested I try some Tube Traps. I bought four units and installed one in each front corner of the room. The bass was instantly smoother, everything sounded clearer, and I thought I heard greater resolution. This was a success.

A while later a friend ordered some Acoustic Revive diffusion panels and as he was on vacation, they arrived at my house. I tried them in my system on the front wall between the Tube Traps. I was surprised and impressed how the sound became more lively and the room more energized. The soundstage seemed to expand in depth and width. I ordered two panels for myself and reluctantly gave my friend his two samples.

The resulting sound was clearer, more contrasty, higher resolution with more detail. The only downside I noticed with all of these items is that they made my listing room look like an audio store.

2. Pneumatic isolation platforms: Townshend Seismic Sink, Vibraplane

Perhaps it was a review I read somewhere or something I picked up from a friend, but I was able to audition a small Townshend Seismic Sink in my system under my one box preamp. Backgrounds became blacker, bass tightened up, resolution increased. “Wow”, I remember thinking. This really made a difference, so I tried it under my CD player. Same effect. I eventually ordered five units, two for my two- box preamp, two for my two-box phono stage, and one for my power distribution box.

Given their effect in my system, I started researching Vibraplane platforms and started talking to a guy on Audiogon about how he had one under his fancy Micro Seiki turntable and another two under his heavy Lamm mono block tube amps. I found one used on Audiogon, and bought two new ones from the distributor who was local. Just as with the Townshend Sinks, the effect was obvious, immediate, and consistent. Blacker backgrounds, more articulate and extended bass, cleaner sound, more resolution.

3. Power cords: 4 audiophile brands, Ching Cheng, manufacturer stock

This category is interesting. I started out with stock power cords years ago until I could afford some audiophile cables and matching power cords. My first brand was Harmonic Technology. They seemed to offer good value for the money. I later upgraded to a full suite of Transparent Audio cables and cords.

I lived with the Transparent products for years, through component upgrades and generally improving sound. Then someone suggested trying stock power cords. I pulled out my SME and Pass Labs power cords and tried them all at once. The sound became less vivid, a bit less focused. I thought I heard more noise in the system obscuring details. I reinserted my Transparent power cords. Blacker backgrounds, more defined images, more focus, more resolution, and perhaps better dynamics.

I then went to visit a good audiophile friend who has a system with which I am very familiar. He swore by his stock cords for $6 each or something. His system sounded excellent, and he encouraged my to try my stock cords again. About this time, I also started reading comments on WBF about stock cords, so I gave them another try in my own system.

The sound became a bit less focused, but it also sounded more alive, more involving. It lost the black background and focused images and “detail”, but it actually sounded a bit more natural. What was going on here? I went back and forth in a somewhat casual way for months, always preferring the sound of the cords in the system. I was conflicted, because the Transparent cords did some things better, while the stock cords did other things better.

Then about a year ago, one manufacturer who was also a member of WBF contacted me and asked if I would be willing to try his power cord in my system. It was under development and I think he was genuinely interested in my listening impressions and those of others in the field, so to speak. I tried the cord in the system. Sure enough, it did some things really well, and reminded me of the sound of the Transparent cord. The resolution might have actually been even better than the audiophile cord I owned, but I did not quite feel as though I could justify spending money on this when it was so similar to what I already had, and I would need three of them. I shared some feedback off line, and the designer appreciated my input.

Then another audiophile cord found its way into my system. This was going around my friends’ systems, so I thought I would give it a try too. Wow, it was really well made, super expensive connectors, etc. etc. I inserted it in my system and it sounded similar to the other two fancy cords. I contacted the designer and shared some feedback but was told the cable was extremely sensitive to being moved around and needed to settle more in my system to sound its best. I had already given it to a friend, so I auditioned the same cord again in his system where it had remained for over a week. I heard the same basic sonic attributes in my friend’s system as I heard in mine, despite the longer break-in or settling time. We then switched back to his stock cords, and we both clearly heard the differences, and they were quite similar to what we had both heard in my system.

What the audiophile cords seem to do in my system, and in my friend’s system, is add a sense of clarity, blacker background, lower noise, and improved resolution. However, they also sounded a bit less lively and less natural. I have since replaced my stock power cords with three Ching Cheng cords which really seem to add nothing to the sound.

In the past few weeks, after fine-tuning my new tonearm and repositioning my speakers to face straight ahead, I have reinstalled all three of these products categories in my system to see if my impresses held. Sure enough, the sonic effects or attributes remain consistent and are repeatable.

These three products all move the sound of my system, individually, and cumulatively, in the same direction: They create a bolder, more defined sound with decreasing noise and blacker backgrounds. The result is the perception of more resolution and detail. Starker, more outlined images in a more defined soundstage. This is the sound I had been chasing for years. I loved the holographic, palpable image of Johnny Hartman singing in my living room or hearing all the detail from a large jazz ensemble. I liked “seeing” the four instruments in a string quartet or picking out specific instruments in larger orchestras. I really dug the defined, articulate bass, emphasized on stage with a spotlight.

However, my tastes are now changing. The more live music I hear, the more I slowly realize that these attributes which sound so impressive and used to confirm for me that I was on the right upgrade path, no longer sound natural to me. They sound like the super expensive systems I heard at dealerships or some shows. It was a hifi sound, so well described in magazine reviews. My friend wrote me that you can not break up music into bits and pieces. The real thing is a more holistic experience. It is experienced as a whole, not as individual elements of sounds. I now understand what he means.

Removing these acoustic treatments, air isolation platforms, and fancy power cords from my system has increased the sense of liveliness and engagement I experience when listening to my records. The sound is less hyper-focused and hifi sounding. Flow, rhythm, life, color, hall acoustics; they all work together now to form a more realistic impression of the actual sound of music. The sound is more open, the room is more energized, and the experience is more enveloping.

For me, in this system, at this time, these changes sound more convincing or believable and more natural. And the system is now simpler. Others may well prefer the more detailed, more defined, and more "high-end sound" I had before. I look forward to hearing what visitors will think.

Hi Peter
Thanks for your very extensive description of your journey.
I got that you ditched fancy powercords but what is your take on RCA/XLR and Speaker cables?
Did I miss that part?

 

[Tango]

Well am not egotistical because I don't post everyweek saying I have a new epiphany about my system someone listen to me

Don't you mock him. I envy how Marc can consistently multiple-climax and happy about his system more than anyone else here. I try very hard to get to that point but my system can only give stiffies.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Tang, we've all read The Joy Of Audio, that version of The Joy Of Sex, for men who choose to spend big getting off in dark rooms on their own. Ked decided to follow the chapter where he maintains full self control and denial of pleasure. Me? I re read the chapter on multiple self gratification and (not so) cheap thrills.