This discussion about toe-in is v. interesting....
I was curious what the Magico user manual says about setup and toe-in for the Q3. Magico speakes in all caps:
Q3 User Guide p.9
In no way Peter do I question what you're hearing in yr room nor David's advice. I am, however, curious about both the theory of no toe-in as well as the sonic differences you heard, Peter, when you made that change. Would you pls say something about that besides you prefer it and it sounds more natural?
David, would you please say what that "bit more work" is? No doubt careful listening is involved. Is measuring? What do you listen for?
Thanks both for your insight.
Hello Tim,
I began by following the advice in the Magico Q3 manual and by observing the various Magico set ups I had heard at dealerships. With the toe in, I remember being "impressed" with imaging and the focus that my system produced. I would try very small changes in toe in and hear increases in focus and what I thought was clarity. I have a scale on the back wall with 1" markings going away from a center reference point, but basically, the speakers were always pointed more or less at my shoulders. Since I have owned the Q3s, they have been pointed directly at a single point at the listening seat to about 12" out from that point. The differences were always a balance between focus, clarity, and tonal balance: more or less what the manual suggests.
Ack commented the first time he heard the system with zero toe-in that I had lost what I had had and what had impressed him so much about my system. He referred to it as 3D imaging or something, with all of the instruments placed precisely in their spots on stage. I agreed with him in the sense that the sound had certainly changed and was much less focused. As I began to more closely listen to small live music performances in regular rooms, and paying attention to how people's voices sounded in my living room or around the dining room table when I closed my eyes, I began to realize that my system did not resemble what I heard live. It had a hyper precise sound which I had mistaken for detail and resolution. I came to realize that it was an artificial sound and was tilted toward the "hifi" end of the spectrum.
It was about this time that I read a few comments by ddk that mentioned zero toe-in. And then he wrote something to me or on my thread to the effect "OK, now you should see what happens when you point the speakers straight ahead". So I tried it. I kept the speakers in the same location, but I simply rotated them outward. At first, it sounded so radically different that I thought something was wrong. It was almost as if there were phase issues with sounds and reflections coming from everywhere and the tonal balance seemed off. The sound had gone from being organized to being chaotic. It was too radical a change and I struggled with it. This was roughly when Ack and VLS visited.
I decided that because it was all free and only meant time and effort on my part that I would spend some time moving around the speakers to see if I could get back to some "normalcy". After a couple of days, the sound started to come together again. I began to be able to localize instruments on a stage. The sense of energy improved. The room became more and more full of sound. Everything started to become free and more open sounding. I realized I was getting closer. I achieved this by moving the speakers increasingly toward each other and forward into the room.
Then with very small 1" increments, I started understanding exactly what moving the speakers toward each other or further apart was doing and the same with 1" further forward to backward. I then moved to 1/2" and 1/4" movements. And then it all clicked and I got an organized sound again, but it was less hyper focused and much more alive. I had lost the pin point imaging, but I could still localize the musicians and singers, and I could understand the scale of the soundstage. Images were less outlined, less 3D, less palpable, but they were more present and real sounding.
I smile to read ddk's used of the word "beaming". The sound was simply less focused and contrived and it was now more like what I hear from live voices and instruments.
These experiments with toe-in came shortly after my decision to remove all of the ASC room treatments, so they may be somewhat related. The treatments damped the room and absorbed certain frequencies thus highlighting other frequencies. This also tended to create more "detail" and a focused sound, and I enjoyed that sound for years. These two changes together seem to complement each other to allow the music to be less constrained, more free. It is hard to explain without using such terms as more "convincing", "real", or "natural".
One would think that because I try to attend live music performances and refer to these experiences as a guide that I would "know" what sounds right or not, almost immediately. However, this was not the case. I had to unlearn this artificial "hifi" sound over time because it had been so ingrained in my for years. One of the revelations came to me when members Ack and VLS were here to listen to recent changes I had made. As VLS left, I sat in a side chair and listened to his departing remarks. Neither of my guests seems overly satisfied with the sound of the system. I listened to him and then closed my eyes. It was both odd and startling. The sound of his voice went from focused and pin pointed to open and expanding. And, I heard sibilance. From that moment on, I knew I had more work to do.
I stopped being concerned about the sibilance I heard from my new vdH cartridges and started to appreciate that that was in fact one of the reasons these cartridges sound so alive and real to me, and so full of energy. This is the way real choral voices and singers sound. (to me) The other thing was how his voice left his figure to expand into the room. With open eyes, the sound of his voice seemed to come from a very fine spot, namely the roughly two inches of his mouth, and I never paid attention to what actually happened to the sound as it projected into the room. With eyes shut, I realized that it is not focused in terms of imaging, but rather simply localized.
This experience helped me to begin to shed the ideas of breaking down sound (and music) into small parts. It is not like that in reality. It is much more simple and holistic. My speaker positioning changes improved the sound to more closely resemble what I heard in these small venues with one or two instruments and what I heard with eyes shut when I listened to Vlad make his closing remarks.
As much as we want to describe things using precise words with specific and agreed upon meanings to attempt to more clearly convey what we hear, the more I find myself agreeing with ddk and his criticism of the glossary of terms that HP created. The simple concept of "natural" resonates with me. It is what we hear in nature, in the concert hall, and it is all around us every day. I have found that it is not an easy thing to achieve in one's system, perhaps because there are so many pieces to the puzzle and a system can easily become complex before one realizes what has happened.
Starting fresh from the position of zero toe-in, and playing with speaker positioning within the room until I finally got it to sound right, was my attempt to decrease the variables and to simplify my approach using my reference of real sound as a guide, rather than some imagined concept I had been reading about, hearing about, and chasing for years.
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