Sublime Sound

[PeterA]

A Honda motor on a Whaler???..sacrilege!!!

I agree. It is the concession I make for reliability and quiet operation. I rely on this to get around. That’s why I also have a Toyota pick up truck for daily use.

Kingsrule, You own the mighty Magico M6. How would you explain people’s seemingly mixed impressions of the brand after multiple listening sessions in different contexts?

 

[Al M.]

I appreciate the sentiment, Al, really. However, I will be the first to admit that it was David Karmeli who really transformed my system from afar. He looked at a couple of photographs I sent him and started making suggestions. A year later, you, Madfloyd and I are enjoying the results. I do not know how many people have heard a Magico system that ddk has had a hand in setting up.

Sure, the transformation inspired by David is profound, but you had achieved a general warmth and weight of tonal balance already earlier. It went through its phases over time (with some downs, too), and culminated with what I heard the last time -- again, the videos don't quite capture that.

The most mechanical and dry I heard your speakers sound was when you had just gotten them, and hadn't yet figured out the setup. You made good changes during an early session with Madfloyd and myself, perhaps inspired by our comments, but lead by your intuition what to do about the criticism.

It seems that many people (including dealers!) just cannot figure out good setup and system context, which then leads to general impressions about the Magico brand that are skewed towards a perception of a cold, clinical and bright sound.

And hey, folks, don't go by show sound. I guess shows just tend to ruin impressions generally, rather than helping them, with a few exceptions. Perhaps the Covid crisis will lead to some healthy rethinking also around this issue in the industry. It's sorely needed.

 

[ddk]

Sure, the transformation inspired by David is profound, but you had achieved a general warmth and weight of tonal balance already earlier. It went through its phases over time (with some downs, too), and culminated with what I heard the last time -- again, the videos don't quite capture that.

The most mechanical and dry I heard your speakers sound was when you had just gotten them, and hadn't yet figured out the setup. You made good changes during an early session with Madfloyd and myself, perhaps inspired by our comments, but lead by your intuition what to do about the criticism.

It seems that many people (including dealers!) just cannot figure out good setup and system context, which then leads to general impressions about the Magico brand that are skewed towards a perception of a cold, clinical and bright sound.

And hey, folks, don't go by show sound. I guess shows just tend to ruin impressions generally, rather than helping them, with a few exceptions. Perhaps the Covid crisis will lead to some healthy rethinking also around this issue in the industry. It's sorely needed.

That is true of all brands Al, setup matters and following the rubbish from HP and his rag regarding goals and sound generally leads to bad sound and lots of unnecessary expense. You're right about Peter, he deserves all the credit for his efforts!

david

 

[Al M.]

That is true of all brands Al, setup matters and following the rubbish from HP and his rag regarding goals and sound generally leads to bad sound and lots of unnecessary expense. You're right about Peter, he deserves all the credit for his efforts!

david

You sure gave good advice, David. I also appreciate your inspiration that lead me to toe out my own speakers much more than I would have otherwise done, resulting in a far more natural presentation, without the hifi-ish pinpoint imaging.

 

[PeterA]

You sure gave good advice, David. I also appreciate your inspiration that lead me to toe out my own speakers much more than I would have otherwise done, resulting in a far more natural presentation, without the hifi-ish pinpoint imaging.

I think it is a odd that there seems to be a bit of resistance to at least trying a set up with zero toe-in. Most people seem to simply follow the manufacturer's advice to point the front baffle at the listener's shoulders or thereabouts. Al, I commend you for trying this and being open minded as to the results. Your manufacturer also has very specific recommendations regarding toe-in if I recall. We also both heard what such a change did to Madfloyd's sound that one afternoon.

I suppose much depends on the type of speaker, the room configuration, and the listener's preferences, but it is a no-cost experiment, and one well worth trying, IMO.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Peter, I gave this an old school go. I lost all focus and soundstage. Failed on every count for me.

 

[MRJAZZ]

I think it is a odd that there seems to be a bit of resistance to at least trying a set up with zero toe-in. Most people seem to simply follow the manufacturer's advice to point the front baffle at the listener's shoulders or thereabouts. Al, I commend you for trying this and being open minded as to the results. Your manufacturer also has very specific recommendations regarding toe-in if I recall. We also both heard what such a change did to Madfloyd's sound that one afternoon.

I suppose much depends on the type of speaker, the room configuration, and the listener's preferences, but it is a no-cost experiment, and one well worth trying, IMO.

I have been recommending zero toe in for many years. Speakers that are aimed at your ears like a “flashlight”, sound unnatural and somewhat forced sounding. Of course this depends on the speaker type, tweeters utilized ( and their quality/ design parameters), however generally I prefer no toe in. It just sounds more engaging and immersive.
Cheers....

 

[PeterA]

Peter, I gave this an old school go. I lost all focus and soundstage. Failed on every count for me.

I did not like it at first either. Because the speakers were not in the correct position. But I started with the goal of trying to get good sound with zero toe-in and I kept working at it. At some point it started sounding better and then I started to fine-tune it and suddenly the sound became much more natural and convincing. It was just harder to do it this way.

 

[Tango]

Would you guys consider sitting closer to the speakers 1.5 meter the same as toe outing?

 

[Folsom]

So are people using zero toe in because their stereo hurts their ears?

Some speakers are designed for low toe in, so it can be a wonder why they were ever toes in. However it seems rare that they tell you.

 

[PeterA]

Would you guys consider sitting closer to the speakers 1.5 meter the same as toe outing?

I would have to try it but I do not think so.

 

[PeterA]

So are people using zero toe in because their stereo hurts their ears?

Some speakers are designed for low toe in, so it can be a wonder why they were ever toes in. However it seems rare that they tell you.

Sorry, I don’t follow.

 

[howiebrou]

Surely toe in is completely speaker and room dependent (and a bit of listener preference)? I would have thought no one is prejudiced against lots or no toe in if the sound obtained was what they wanted...

 

[Folsom]

Sorry, I don’t follow.

The higher the frequency on any given drive the less dispersion (fires straight forward). Higher frequencies have more volume toe'd in, particularly on non-directivity speakers. If you look at a frequency response of your speaker it is measured dead on. That frequency response changes a lot when you start to rotate the speaker.

So it makes you wonder if some people's stereo hurts their ears, and generally speaking higher frequencies are more offensive when they aren't right.

 

[ddk]

The higher the frequency on any given drive the less dispersion (fires straight forward). Higher frequencies have more volume toe'd in, particularly on non-directivity speakers. If you look at a frequency response of your speaker it is measured dead on. That frequency response changes a lot when you start to rotate the speaker.

So it makes you wonder if some people's stereo hurts their ears, and generally speaking higher frequencies are more offensive when they aren't right.

It has nothing to do with that Folsom, it's a difference in presentation and dispersion of sound waves vis a vis the listener. Toed in, toed out and straight on set ups have always worked the same way with every speaker that I know even when manufacturer recommends toe-in.

david

 

[ddk]

Surely toe in is completely speaker and room dependent (and a bit of listener preference)? I would have thought no one is prejudiced against lots or no toe in if the sound obtained was what they wanted...

Not really, you can setup the speakers with or without any toe-in in any room. Not a question of prejudice Howie, for me straight on is a more natural experience but it takes a bit more work to get it right.

david

 

[ddk]

Would you guys consider sitting closer to the speakers 1.5 meter the same as toe outing?

No.

david

 

[tima]

I think it is a odd that there seems to be a bit of resistance to at least trying a set up with zero toe-in. Most people seem to simply follow the manufacturer's advice to point the front baffle at the listener's shoulders or thereabouts.

This discussion about toe-in is v. interesting.

Circa 1999, with my Audio Physics Avanti Centuries in a long wall near-field setup - out in the middle of the room about 8ft from my listening position, Doing my own setup, I ended up with no toe-in. Imaging, focus, depth and resolution were, I thought, excellent. Of toe-in, AP spoke in terms of tonal balance, center-fill and image focus, adjusting in part for the relative liveliness or dampedness of the room/sound (bright/dull). There was no requirement for equal toe-in from both speakers.

Since that era, I've had 3 Wilsons. Each came with a John Giolas visit from Utah, who did the setup. I was reviewing by then and took it that each setup represented Wilson's desire for the best presentation their speaker had to offer. As it stands now, I just barely see the inside wall of each speaker, though the toe-in is not identical. As John adjusted setup in tiny increments I literally heard the speakers disappear as he got them closer and closer to their final position.

I was curious what the Magico user manual says about setup and toe-in for the Q3. Magico speakes in all caps:

THE RULE FOR THE TOE-IN IS TO PICK A POINT APPROXIMATELY 1 – 2 FEET (½ M) BEHIND THE LISTENER’S HEAD. TOE THE LOUDSPEAKERS IN TO INTERSECT AT THAT POINT. IF THE SOUND IS TOO BRIGHT, TOE THE SPEAKERS OUT A LITTLE MORE. IF THE SOUND IS TOO DULL, TOE THE SPEAKERS IN A LITTLE MORE.

Q3 User Guide p.9

In no way Peter do I question what you're hearing in yr room nor David's advice. I am, however, curious about both the theory of no toe-in as well as the sonic differences you heard, Peter, when you made that change. Would you pls say something about that besides you prefer it and it sounds more natural?

Not a question of prejudice Howie, for me straight on is a more natural experience but it takes a bit more work to get it right.

David, would you please say what that "bit more work" is? No doubt careful listening is involved. Is measuring? What do you listen for?

Thanks both for your insight.

 

[howiebrou]

Not really, you can setup the speakers with or without any toe-in in any room. Not a question of prejudice Howie, for me straight on is a more natural experience but it takes a bit more work to get it right.

david

Noted. I was just responding to the comment that some people had difficulty accepting less toe in, which I'm sure is not the case. I have been meaning to try and have less toe in for a couple of months but lethargy has won the day so far

 

[XV-1]

Rufus Du Sol - Atlas and Bloom - a double shot of almost perfect local Sydney synth