Synergy?

[microstrip]

You're assuming an awful lot. I only used Arc and Krell because they were the examples used in the post I was responding to. I've never heard and Arc amp and haven't a clue what they sound like. And I hardly think the specs that make components compatible are trade secrets.

Tim

Tim,

From my limited experience the results from specific measurements and the techniques used in the measurements are really trade secrets. Manufacturers have non standard control measurements to check their equipment key sound characteristics. These measurements are also used in the development phase - surely you do not believe they design only by listening and swapping components.

Why do you thing that they buy Audio Precision very expensive high performance testers, with very complicated measuring suites and protocols, and do not use just a 24 bit 192 kHz PC Soundcard with some freeware analysis software?

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim,

From my limited experience the results from specific measurements and the techniques used in the measurements are really trade secrets. Manufacturers have non standard control measurements to check their equipment key sound characteristics. These measurements are also used in the development phase - surely you do not believe they design only by listening and swapping components.

Why do you thing that they buy Audio Precision very expensive high performance testers, with very complicated measuring suites and protocols, and do not use just a 24 bit 192 kHz PC Soundcard with some freeware analysis software?

Perhaps I misunderstand what makes two components compatible. I would expect it to be very basic stuff, not proprietary.

Tim

 

[jkeny]

Perhaps I misunderstand what makes two components compatible. I would expect it to be very basic stuff, not proprietary.

Tim

Maybe it's not "Just" compatibility that you should be considering but rather optimum interaction? This is what is usually IP, not the specs that you can read from a datasheet. As someone said, the important stuff in the datasheets is what they leave out

 

[JackD201]

I'm pretty sure the makers of Tim's actives are holding some things close to their vests too. There's a whole world full of bandits out to steal intellectual property after all.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Maybe it's not "Just" compatibility that you should be considering but rather optimum interaction? This is what is usually IP, not the specs that you can read from a datasheet. As someone said, the important stuff in the datasheets is what they leave out

Examples of optimizing interaction?

Tim

 

[JackD201]

Where do you want to start Tim? We can start from having sufficient load from the power company for your house, then to your wall outlets and end with choosing the right chair and where to put it. Look at it this way, when a system is all wired up, it can be considered one big circuit. When one says optimizing interaction it means getting the components compatible over a wider operating range remaining linear from the quietest passages to the loudest and not collapse and thin out at low levels and break up at high levels.

If you can get a chance, find the CDs from defunct record label Pope Music. No compression was used whatsoever in the recording and mastering of the entire catalog. A well sorted out system will not require the listener to ride his volume control to hear the greater majority of musical information. A warning though, some passages can be extremely startling.

 

[microstrip]

(...) If you can get a chance, find the CDs from defunct record label Pope Music. No compression was used whatsoever in the recording and mastering of the entire catalog. A well sorted out system will not require the listener to ride his volume control to hear the greater majority of musical information. A warning though, some passages can be extremely startling.

Jack,

I can not hide anything from you! This is one of my usual test CDs:

Mark Gorenstein - Russian Symphony Orchestra, Shostakovitch : 1. Symphony No 5, op. 47, Chamber Symphony for String Orchestra, op. 110a , Pope Music PMG20092

 

[jkeny]

Examples of optimizing interaction?

Tim

Have you not been reading this thread or paying attention? Tut-tut

Anyway, that would be proprietary
Or as an oft quoted line in a comedy called Father Ted says "that would be an Ecumenical matter"

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Where do you want to start Tim? We can start from having sufficient load from the power company for your house, then to your wall outlets and end with choosing the right chair and where to put it. Look at it this way, when a system is all wired up, it can be considered one big circuit. When one says optimizing interaction it means getting the components compatible over a wider operating range remaining linear from the quietest passages to the loudest and not collapse and thin out at low levels and break up at high levels.

If you can get a chance, find the CDs from defunct record label Pope Music. No compression was used whatsoever in the recording and mastering of the entire catalog. A well sorted out system will not require the listener to ride his volume control to hear the greater majority of musical information. A warning though, some passages can be extremely startling.

Sorry, Jack, I was unclear again. I was specifically asking about the interaction between two components. John was proposing that optimizing the interaction between two components is the step beyond compatiblity between two components. I believe him. But I'd like to understand it better.

Tim

 

[jkeny]

Sorry, Jack, I was unclear again. I was specifically asking about the interaction between two components. John was proposing that optimizing the interaction between two components is the step beyond compatiblity between two components. I believe him. But I'd like to understand it better.

Tim

Let me give you an example that I cam e across recently of this sort of attempt at optimisation but don't ask for measurements & proof that it works, frankly I don't know, OK!
Look at Dartzeel - they feel that matching the impedance between the preamplifier & the amplifier is the optimum for line level connections.

This is a well known approach for high speed digital signals such as SPDIF, where the characteristic impedance is 75ohm. Do all manufacturers design their digital sockets adhering to the 75ohm specification - no! Any time you see an RCA connection for SPDIF you know that it is not 75 ohm. Does this stop the SPIDF signal from getting through (compatibility), no? Does it prevent the signal from being transmitted optimally, yes! It causes reflections & signal loss. Again don't ask about audibility! That's not what your question was!

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Let me give you an example that I cam e across recently of this sort of attempt at optimisation but don't ask for measurements & proof that it works, frankly I don't know, OK!
Look at Dartzeel - they feel that matching the impedance between the preamplifier & the amplifier is the optimum for line level connections.

This is a well known approach for high speed digital signals such as SPDIF, where the characteristic impedance is 75ohm. Do all manufacturers design their digital sockets adhering to the 75ohm specification - no! Any time you see an RCA connection for SPDIF you know that it is not 75 ohm. Does this stop the SPIDF signal from getting through (compatibility), no? Does it prevent the signal from being transmitted optimally, yes! It causes reflections & signal loss. Again don't ask about audibility! That's not what your question was!

OK, this probably falls into the category of dumb questions. I'm willing to accept that. So my SPDIF connection is not 75 ohm. It's 72. Is there a way to deal with that? A 72 ohm cable? Wouldn't actually knowing the values and matching them be a better path? Do you make anything with an RCA connection? I assume it's not 75 ohm. How do you tell your customers to synergize around the fact that the impedance of that connection doesn't match the impedence of their coax cable?

And is it audible? Ok, now I'm just being obnoxious. Sorry.

Tim

 

[Ethan Winer]

In that case I no longer agree with [Ethan].

Whew! All is again right with the world!

--Ethan

 

[rbbert]

I think Synergy is used with some artistic license. Compatibility means two or more components can be used together. Synergy is meant to imply that the components are allowed to perform at or near their individual potentials. For example, impedance matching will give you compatibility, gain matching along with that will give you more than that in both subjective and objective terms...

Typically synergy is used to mean performance (in a system) better than would be expected than by merely summing the performance of its parts.

Somehow, in our world, it has come to mean system performance not worse than expected from the sum of its parts.

 

[Ronm1]

^ Sort of like The Beatles

 

[jkeny]

Jkeny,

Can you explain my why?
Both have similar maximum levels and low output impedance compared with the input impedance of the power amplifiers.

OK, this probably falls into the category of dumb questions. I'm willing to accept that. So my SPDIF connection is not 75 ohm. It's 72.

Why do you say it's 72? Have you any idea what the impedance of an RCA connection is? Your assumption is way off by anything up to 40 ohm.

Is there a way to deal with that? A 72 ohm cable? Wouldn't actually knowing the values and matching them be a better path?

There is a specification of 75 ohm for a reason - that everybody uses it!! So if everybody sticks to the spec there is no need to know your impedance.

Do you make anything with an RCA connection?[

No!

I assume it's not 75 ohm. How do you tell your customers to synergize around the fact that the impedance of that connection doesn't match the impedence of their coax cable?

Again your assumptions are incorrect

And is it audible? Ok, now I'm just being obnoxious. Sorry.

Tim

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

OK, John, you need to speak real sloooooooow. Forget my examples, they're based in ignorance.

If the spec for a coax cable is 75 ohm, and if everybody sticks to that I don't need to know what my imedance is, well, this is good, because I'm a user, not a designer, and I don't really even want to know what my impedance is, I just want everybody to stick to the specs so if I plug X output into Y input, it shoud operate properly when I play music, regardless of who made device X and who made device Y. And it really sounds like you're saying that's the way the system works.

So what is this "optiimizing" and how do I achieve it?

Tim

 

[jkeny]

OK, John, you need to speak real sloooooooow. Forget my examples, they're based in ignorance.

If the spec for a coax cable is 75 ohm, and if everybody sticks to that I don't need to know what my imedance is, well, this is good, because I'm a user, not a designer, and I don't really even want to know what my impedance is, I just want everybody to stick to the specs so if I plug X output into Y input, it shoud operate properly when I play music, regardless of who made device X and who made devcie Y. And it really sounds like you're saying that's the way the system works.

So what is this "optiimizing" and how do I achieve it?

Tim

Your missing some pieces of the puzzle, Tim.
75 ohm is the spec, right.
I already said that anybody who uses an RCA SPIF connector does not have a 75ohm connection, right
How many devices do you see with this type of SPDIF connector on them?
So you can tell me now what percentage of manufacturers stick to this simple 75 ohm spec, right?

Now will it work without the 75 ohm connection, yes!
Will it work optimally, no!
Capice?

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Your missing some pieces of the puzzle, Tim.
75 ohm is the spec, right.
I already said that anybody who uses an RCA SPIF connector does not have a 75ohm connection, right
How many devices do you see with this type of SPDIF connector on them?
So you can tell me now what percentage of manufacturers stick to this simple 75 ohm spec, right?

Now will it work without the 75 ohm connection, yes!
Will it work optimally, no!
Capice?

You're still not talking nearly slowly enough, John. Let's go back. You said this (emphasis mine):

There is a specification of 75 ohm for a reason - that everybody uses it!! So if everybody sticks to the spec there is no need to know your impedance.

Then you said this:

So you can tell me now what percentage of manufacturers stick to this simple 75 ohm spec, right?

Now will it work without the 75 ohm connection, yes!
Will it work optimally, no!

Which seems to say they're not sticking to the spec. So if they're sticking to the spec, what are you optimizing? And if they're not sticking to the spec, how are you optimizing without knowing what the real, values are?

Jeez, I'm glad I've got band practice toninght, I need to clear my head.

Tim

 

[microstrip]

OK, this probably falls into the category of dumb questions. I'm willing to accept that. So my SPDIF connection is not 75 ohm. It's 72. Is there a way to deal with that? A 72 ohm cable? Wouldn't actually knowing the values and matching them be a better path? Do you make anything with an RCA connection? I assume it's not 75 ohm. How do you tell your customers to synergize around the fact that the impedance of that connection doesn't match the impedence of their coax cable?

And is it audible? Ok, now I'm just being obnoxious. Sorry.

Tim

Tim,

Trying analogies with video or digital, where correct termination of lines and cable impedance must be matched to avoid errors due to reflections of very fast signals will just introduce noise in the debate and move us back to a jitter discussion.

IMHO, Dartzeel sounds good because of the particular implementation of the 50 ohm standard in their circuits, not because it is 50 ohm. This is a good case of compatibility, and also happily adds synergy on top, otherwise it would be useless, as, AFAIK, they are the only company using it to connect audio equipment. Cousin company Playback manufactures a source component with 50 ohm capability just for them. As is also has other types of outputs it can be used with "normal" equipment.

 

[jkeny]

Jkeny,

Can you explain my why?
Both have similar maximum levels and low output impedance compared with the input impedance of the power amplifiers.

You're still not talking nearly slowly enough, John. Let's go back. You said this (emphasis mine):



Then you said this:



Which seems to say they're not sticking to the spec. So if they're sticking to the spec, what are you optimizing? And if they're not sticking to the spec, how are you optimizing without knowing what the real, values are?

Jeez, I'm glad I've got band practice toninght, I need to clear my head.

Tim

Tim, you're living in Winer's world of perfection - it doesn't exist - the real world isn't perfect.
The fact of the matter is that optimal is 75ohm but most manufacturers don't care about this but are still compatible.
Compatible to me means the two devices will work together.
Optimal is a step above this requirement which I would call adequate.

I've explained it enough now & further questions on your part will simply be semantics. You know what the point is!