Even within one component by itself (the preamp for example); all the internal parts must have a good synergy between each other to sound its/their best.
Synergy?
- Thread starter Ethan Winer
- Start date
Bruce B
WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
Nope, they both have their meanings and places. :b ...In reference to John's post.
* See, that's what's goin' on here, in this thread, since the beginning; we are taking a different bifurcation all because of the word definition from 'synergy'.
But then, in Audio we are used to reinvent the wheel. :b
* See, that's what's goin' on here, in this thread, since the beginning; we are taking a different bifurcation all because of the word definition from 'synergy'.
But then, in Audio we are used to reinvent the wheel. :b
Jkeny,
Can you explain my why?
Both have similar maximum levels and low output impedance compared with the input impedance of the power amplifiers.
They both have there place...
I look at Compatibility as the h/w, while Synergy is s/w,sonics.
__________
Compatibility SACD disc in a redbook player, impedance, ...etc
______
Synergy uber sacd disc, with uber detailed player, uber detailed pre/amp, uber detailed speakers, live room
I look at Compatibility as the h/w, while Synergy is s/w,sonics.
__________
Compatibility SACD disc in a redbook player, impedance, ...etc
______
Synergy uber sacd disc, with uber detailed player, uber detailed pre/amp, uber detailed speakers, live room
Bruce,
Wise words. The compatibility between preamplfiers and amplifiers is very easy to test and predictable from simple specifications.
I will give you an old example - long ago Jeff Rowland and Atmasphere were some of the few high-end companies that built preamplifiers and amplifiers uisng the 600 ohm standard. I tried an Jeff Rowland Coherence One preamplifer with the MA2 Atmasphere amplfiier and it was not a good match, although the compatibility was excellent.
Ok, let’s run with this definition. Does someone want to argue the fact that by combining a preamp with a power amp (the interaction or cooperation if you will) that it doesn’t result in a combined effect greater than the sum of the separate efforts? You might be able to run your power amp without a preamp if your amp has level controls on it, but it certainly won’t be as flexible and by itself, it will be less than the sum of the separate efforts. If your amp has no level controls, you pretty much have to have some sort of preamp for it to be useful. A preamp without a power amp is pretty much useless.
So, I think even if you want to stick to a strict interpretation of the word synergy, we can still make it work. I could go on and give other examples, but I think you get the point.
Well, somehow I seriously doubt we all agree on anything around here. However, I certainly don’t agree with you for the reasons I clearly stated above why synergy can’t be applied to describe the interaction between audio components. I think it fits perfectly.
Jkeny,
Can you explain my why?
Both have similar maximum levels and low output impedance compared with the input impedance of the power amplifiers.
You see this is where we attribute a magic ingredient i.e synergy to something that we don't understand/measure. Let's say we knew nothing about impedances then when we combined some preamps with some amplifiers we would get "magic" & the same preamp with a different amplifier would sound just OK or even bad. But we do know about impedances so this is not a mystery or magical in any way so we don't call it synergy.
Now my contention is that in the hypothetical example you gave me, we don't know about how the two components, pre-amplifier & amplifier, handle things such as common mode noise, RFI, etc. & what you are getting is a combination that works for one combination but not for another. In other words we just don't know all the interacting elements that we nee to factor in to our combinations.
I think you're on to something there Tim.
This is one of the great advantages of the modern method of impedance "bridging," for lack of a better word. Modern gear is designed to have a high input impedance and a low output impedance. This removes actual "matching" from the equation, which in turn ensures the best frequency response and lowest distortion possible. It also lets you "Y" connect multiple line-level devices to one output without interaction.
--Ethan
Tim,
I am sure that, as usually, you already have all the answers, but could not resist again to suggest that almost all of us behave in a foolish way.
Assuming that you are referring to the less than 10 line specifications usually supplied by manufacturers, they are very limited - better using our dark experience with the brands than using them believing we are seeing the truth.
BTW, better being a fool than thinking that we know the truth because we believe in a few thumb rules.
God (and my wife) knows I don't have all the answers, Micro, but given the way some people talk about "synergy," I do seriously wonder if they understand the specifications and know that have reached compatibility before they head down the path, in search of something "better."
I hope these folks are the exceptions, not the rule, but given some of the responses in this thread, I know they exist. A significant chunk of this conversation reads more like drug-addled philosopy than a disussion of component-matching in an electronic system.
Tim
But the point is, Tim, that we don't have the correct specs for the devices to be able to decide what is compatible & what is not so we therefore assign the word synergy to components that work well together. Let's dig deeper & find out what is the important specs that are giving rise to this "synergu" & we will no longer need the term - it becomes compatibility.
BTW, your wife is God - get with the program
But the point is, Tim, that we don't have the correct specs for the devices to be able to decide what is compatible & what is not so we therefore assign the word synergy to components that work well together. Let's dig deeper & find out what is the important specs that are giving rise to this "synergu" & we will no longer need the term - it becomes compatibility.
BTW, your wife is God - get with the program
Cool. So all the technical guys, of which I am not one, tell us what specs matter to achieve compatibility between components. Why does that Arc sound different from that Krell? Is it "synergy" or simply the performance of the two preamps?
Tim
Does that bring us back to the thinking that if you have two devices that the specifications say should be electrically compatible with each other that they will sound the same if you substitute another device that is also electrically compatible? I think we could come up with all types of pairings that on paper are compatible and substitute another component that is also compatible and change the sound for the better or worse.
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You also missed my addition to my post answering this
What I meant is that using the proper AC line isolation product eg. something say along the lines of what Mike L. did for his room, will produce a synergistic effect in his system. The same goes for in my experience, something like the Silver Circle 5se PLC.
Yes.
I did it as confusingly as possible. The one without the ? is a question to the more technical among us -- what specs would we need to look at to truly understand compatability? The one with the ? really isn't a question. If the Arc preamp is completely compatible with the Krell amps, and yet it still sounds markedly different from the Krell preamp, it's probably something other than compatibility. Frequency response? Second order harmonic mojo? Immeasurable supersonic soup? Tim
Tim,
I am sure that, as usually, you already have all the answers, but could not resist again to suggest that almost all of us behave in a foolish way.
Assuming that you are referring to the less than 10 line specifications usually supplied by manufacturers, they are very limited - better using our dark experience with the brands than using them believing we are seeing the truth.
BTW, better being a fool than thinking that we know the truth because we believe in a few thumb rules.
To follow up what you just said:
Johnson: It's always essential to have a fully-integrated or fully-interfaced system. The ideal power amplifier would be one that in no way can interact with the speaker crossover. In other words, whenever you hook the amplifier to the loudspeaker, the speaker's crossover and drivers behave as if you haven't changed anything. Yet a power amplifier that's very fast is going to put out some very high frequencies. The speaker cable bust be able to damp or absorb those frequencies without causing reflections or rebound from the unknown parts that are inside the loudspeaker.
That requires a special cable. In other words, the faster the amplifier, the more one has to be very careful about the cable connecting the speaker. In a system approach, the advantage is that the cable is done right. The speaker sees virtually the zero or defined impedance that the crossover was designed with. A cheap cable might have inductance which will actually detune some of the parts within the crossover and make the crossover behave differently. A very small change of inductance in the cable can make a big difference in what's happening inside a speaker. By building all these parts as a system, the interactions are designed out and the whole thing simply works better......
Another factor is that we want to eliminate what I call the "one and only" system. That's where one takes a group of components and starts sifting through these to find some combination of parts that seems to work the best. Then if you change any part of the system, it suddenly doesn't work. The system becomes a complex interaction of filters. If you finally get something pretty good, you can't do anything with it.
Myles, this goes back to my example - I think the AC line isolation actually is dealing with issues that we don't yet have a good handle on namely grounding, common mode noise, etc. Now it's possible to build better handling of these issues into individual products but there is a lack of knowledge & understanding about these issues so there is a wide variation among devices. Good AC line isolation probably globally deals with some of these issues so they become less critical in interactions between components.
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For those who think we know it all:
Keith Johnson: Listening to the microphone feed with a live orchestra on the other end is an invaluable experience. You hear certain problems - a granularity, or smearing of information, or lack of detail, or a number of other things that can go wrong. By listening to the live feed and knowing what goes on inside the electronics, you can go back to the bench and figure out what caused the problems. Usually, I have to build my own test equipment. Not only do I build microphones and the rest of the recording chain, I end up building test equipment as well.
Keith Johnson: Listening to the microphone feed with a live orchestra on the other end is an invaluable experience. You hear certain problems - a granularity, or smearing of information, or lack of detail, or a number of other things that can go wrong. By listening to the live feed and knowing what goes on inside the electronics, you can go back to the bench and figure out what caused the problems. Usually, I have to build my own test equipment. Not only do I build microphones and the rest of the recording chain, I end up building test equipment as well.
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