Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[howiebrou]

Really

Now it's morning here I think basically everything that needs to be said has been said. My own simple point is that there is no measurement for neutrality. It is purely subjective which is why given the same budgets we all have vastly different systems. The proof is in the eating and the fact that you have reached the pinnacle and see no need to change anything is perfect for you and your current set up including whatever accesories you might have such as footers, platforms, acoustic treatments. Nobody has the same feeling of neutrality as someone else. It's all about preference.
Personally I would be the first to state that I don't care if something is "neutral or "natural". We are so removed, in our systems, from real performances that to me that there is no point using that as a reference. Just get the sound you like. Life is simpler that way.

 

[justubes]

The attention to the power supply in the has been very carefully tuned and it is a no hold barred implementation with the very expensive Duelund bypassing.

This will never possibly be implemented in anything short of a hand crafted design. It is eye candy and a sight to behold!

A fuse , otherwise can not show it's beauty, never seen and always forgotten.

It may be best for Emile to test and recommend which brand is the best to synergise with the sound he has going forth.

I have been there, with nice Duelund caps for power supply bypass and the sonic benefits can so easily be undone by using a wrong sounding fuse, power cable or isolated support!

But like a double edged sword, finding the correct sounding fuse could possibly leapfrog the performance by a very very large margin!

I was rather surprised a small amperage fuse is used for such a high current demand of the Extreme as the current draw for the processor would surely be huge at times and powering so much RAM and PCIE memory modules.

 

[matthias]

The attention to the power supply in the has been very carefully tuned and it is a no hold barred implementation with the very expensive Duelund bypassing.

This will never possibly be implemented in anything short of a hand crafted design. It is eye candy and a sight to behold!

A fuse , otherwise can not show it's beauty, never seen and always forgotten.

It may be best for Emile to test and recommend which brand is the best to synergise with the sound he has going forth.

I have been there, with nice Duelund caps for power supply bypass and the sonic benefits can so easily be undone by using a wrong sounding fuse, power cable or isolated support!

But like a double edged sword, finding the correct sounding fuse could possibly leapfrog the performance by a very very large margin!

I was rather surprised a small amperage fuse is used for such a high current demand of the Extreme as the current draw for the processor would surely be huge at times and powering so much RAM and PCIE memory modules.

I would say the fuse fits perfectly to the 400VA transformer in the Extreme

Matt

 

[Taiko Audio]

Can we also know the timing characteristics, or even better, the brand and model? I do not want to power off my Extreme!

Sure will look up the details next week!

In case of problems, some audiophile fuses will break only after great damage to the power supply.

Yes, you cannot know the exact rating, some audiophile fuses are deliberately overspecified, some blow fast so people fit a higher rated one. And yes this can cause damage.

 

[Blackmorec]

If you would like a crash course on neutral (or natural sounding) you need to spend 3-5 days at DDK's boot camp where David espouses "above all else, the system must sound natural". It's like going to the desert to experience an epiphany and changed my way of listening after my mecca visit to his house

David would go so far and add that if something stands out where your brain is drawn to it such that all you concentrate on is the deeper bass or better highs etc, then you are being distracted by something colored or not natural (neutral)

Think about this for a moment. We’re playing recordings. So the first thing you need to comply with the above are perfectly neutral or natural recordings. Good luck with that. I have thousands of recordings and no 2 sound exactly the same, so what constitutes natural or neutral? What you need is a system that doesn’t impose its own identity on anything it plays. Recordings should all sound different, that’s the nature of the beast. Whether they sound natural or neutral should depend entirely on the recording, so the word transparent is more appropriate in that the system does not impose its own ‘constant’ set of characteristics on the music. Again, if you are concentrating on deeper bass or better highs, it doesn’t automatically mean that your system is coloured and not natural. Let’s say your system doesn’t draw attention to itself, but slightly attenuates bass and treble frequency extremes. If you were to swap that for a better system that does a far better job in ACCURATELY recovering all the bass and treble, you’re going to be drawn to how beautiful the bass and treble now sound. Does that make the new system flawed? No, quite the opposite. It makes the new system more accurate and enjoyable. It all depends on WHY you’re hearing extra bass and treble. If its because that’s how it is on the recording and you’re simply recovering it better, all good. If its because you’re emphasising bass and treble and they sound ‘hyped’ on every recording, then you have a problem. If you don’t differentiate between the two you’re very likely to end up with a self effacing system whose own ‘coloration’ is in ‘imposing’ neutrality on every recording. Not what you want.
So to get back to the original point....when you change fuses and hear more of anything, is it because the fuse is ‘hyping’ something or because the system is now recovering more from the recording? In the end, if you decide to change a fuse, the ‘ONLY‘ question is, do you like your system more with or without the new fuse....not changing a fuse because Emile decided to use a particular fuse in his system is simply supplanting your taste with Emile’s. I would agree that Emile has an extremely refined ear, but in the end its you listening to the music and only you it has to please.

BTW, doesn't it strike you as odd that despite all the fancy power supplies and digital circuitry, fuses can still make a significant sonic difference? This is true for almost every hi-fi component....still a lot more going on than we can explain

 

[EuroDriver]

BTW, doesn't it strike you as odd that despite all the fancy power supplies and digital circuitry, fuses can still make a significant sonic difference? This is true for almost every hi-fi component....still a lot more going on than we can explain

Not at all.

The choice of power cord, the IEC inlet, the internal wiring all have a very audible signature on a Music Server and all other digital Source equipment so no surprise that the fuse bottleneck is very audible too. The very low noise floor of the Extreme makes these sonic signatures even more apparent and audible

 

[Steve Williams]

BTW, doesn't it strike you as odd that despite all the fancy power supplies and digital circuitry, fuses can still make a significant sonic difference? This is true for almost every hi-fi component....still a lot more going on than we can explain

whatever floats your boat......if it makes you happy and you hear a difference then go for it. As I said I have different goals from you and I can bet you that I am smiling and tapping my toes every bit as much as you

I have zero desires to follow that path. If manufacturers were smarter they would have a notice in the warranty that any damage done as a result of a fuse nullifies the warranty. I have heard too many anecdotal stories of components blowing up with inadequate fuses. This reminds me of Spectral gear and the need for use of their cables or MIT cables as anything else could blow up the component.I know a few people who did that very thing by using other than recommended cables

as for a significant sonic difference, my mindset likes just fine the way Emile has voiced the Extreme. For my ears I have no desire to go down that rabbit hole but I do enjoy reading all of the stories here about members tweaks.

you should spend a few days with DDK in Cedar City Utah at his boot camp. You might come away with a different perspective as to "natural" where David's mantra is, "above all else, it must sound natural". It's quite amazing what a $5.50 Ching Cheng PC does to the sound ( or should I say what it doesn't do)

There are many roads to Rome. I am just taking a different one than you as my ears like just fine the way Emile has voiced the Extreme

 

[andromedaaudio]

Lol thats funny , DDK s boot camp .
3 days in the Utah desert without expensive tweaks and fuses.
Rumour goes only few have survived.

 

[Steve Williams]

Lol thats funny , DDK s boot camp .
3 days in the Utah desert without expensive tweaks and fuses.
Rumour goes only few have survived.

I was there for 5 days. He wouldn't let me leave

 

[spiritofmusic]

Hmm. Is that leaving a cult? Or joining one?

 

[Steve Williams]

It’s neither Marc but thanks for the comment

 

[spiritofmusic]

Steve, I see my humour is wasted on you. But you know how it goes...impressionable young adult ends up holed away in the desert and gives up long held beliefs, only to leave and share the message w outsiders.

 

[microstrip]

But if absolute transparency is valid (and as yet unachieved) as concept then by translation absolutely natural is also an equally valid potential concept... one logically leads to the other in that a perfectly transparent recording and playback system with acoustic instruments then that transparency of process essentially leads to the acoustic sounds then sounding just as they do in reality ie natural.

This is the main issue - no stereo, even ideal stereo, will ever sound as the real. Each of us considers natural what we feel reminds us more of the real or is enjoyable for any other reason. Some people even consider that excessive transparency of the process will create an unreal sound.

The stereo thing (like the whole idea of a stereo itself is built on a trick) but if the trick is in distinguishable from the real then this is then a transparent effect... a perfect deception will indeed lead to the perception of a completely natural sound.

Again, unless you add suggestion (also referred as bias) and alcohol beverages there is no indistinguishable ...

Not really, just working with the realistic limits set by the topic itself which is bound intrinsically by subjectivity and because simply there are no absolutes here and indeed everything about perception is inherently subjective.

All we can only do is try and set realistic benchmarks on where the tipping points in perception from something being experienced as essentially natural as opposed to essentially synthetic might just be a simple issue of the sense of apparent rightness in the judgement and nothing any more complex than that.

As soon as we enter perception unless we add statistical analysis and proper experiments than we have just opinions and a lot of long enjoyable debates on semantics, as probably this one ...

So how do you arrive at a supposition that learning is a principle and direct aim of experiencing music... it’s surely a tangential outcome and not a direct one. It may be more likely (since music predates higher order awareness and highly developed language) that music creates change and connects more fundamentally in feeling rather than ideas which may then also (or not) be abstracted from the experience of feelings and sensations through the music... so awareness created from that change (learning) is another parallel outcome in a coexistent state of awareness. The direct aim of experiencing music can’t be locked down into any more context than just whatever we get out of experiencing music. Learning anything doesn’t seem to be always an outcome and for some it is an unimportant side issue. The best part of music is that about which naught can be said.

I was saying natural was at the core of a compass in relating experience of fidelity in acoustic sounds... a limited reference and not at all exact, but a ballpark point at the axials of all the diverging poles away from the truth. Everyone chooses how to navigate differently but use the essential sense that acoustic instruments sound fundamentally right is just a valid way finding... no more than that. Micro I’d be surprised if you can’t listen to something with an archetypal sound say like an acoustic guitar and say whether what you are hearing sounds relatively natural or relatively synthetic but if you can’t that’s all good but plenty of people here seem to find no trouble in recognising a distinction like that. This isn’t about absolute exactness but rather close enough approximations in perceptions that require no noticeable effort to translate the nature of a sound into its context

IMHO yours or mine experience and expertise are not relevant at all on this matter. The single instrument experiment is the most flawed argument of the sound reproduction since the Edison listening challenges. Using recordings of violins or guitars to establish what is natural or not is not a valid criteria IMHO - anyway just look at F. Toole arguments concerning the Circle of Confusion to rule it out.

 

[microstrip]

whatever floats your boat......if it makes you happy and you hear a difference then go for it. As I said I have different goals from you and I can bet you that I am smiling and tapping my toes every bit as much as you

I have zero desires to follow that path. If manufacturers were smarter they would have a notice in the warranty that any damage done as a result of a fuse nullifies the warranty. I have heard too many anecdotal stories of components blowing up with inadequate fuses. This reminds me of Spectral gear and the need for use of their cables or MIT cables as anything else could blow up the component.I know a few people who did that very thing by using other than recommended cables

as for a significant sonic difference, my mindset likes just fine the way Emile has voiced the Extreme. For my ears I have no desire to go down that rabbit hole but I do enjoy reading all of the stories here about members tweaks.

you should spend a few days with DDK in Cedar City Utah at his boot camp. You might come away with a different perspective as to "natural" where David's mantra is, "above all else, it must sound natural". It's quite amazing what a $5.50 Ching Cheng PC does to the sound ( or should I say what it doesn't do)

There are many roads to Rome. I am just taking a different one than you as my ears like just fine the way Emile has voiced the Extreme

Steve,

I am a firm partisan of the "whatever floats your boat" and "there are many roads to Rome" and really enjoy our posts analyzing these roads and trying to understand them and correlating them with our systems and preferences. But I can't stop from asking how someone currently listening mainly to digital and using ultra-expensive cables and footers can claim to share David's mantra of sounding "natural".

And yes, Ching Cheng PC does something to the sound - for example it sounds different from a power cable made from the same standard copper wire used inside the walls of my house and my dedicated lines. BTW, are you also using the CC in the Extreme? I am still in the research period concerning Extreme cabling.

 

[Steve Williams]

I use 1.5’s under my Extreme

i don’t believe Ching Cheng adds anything
To my ears that which I have added doesnt accentuate any particular part of my sound but rather contributes equally to the overall sound.
IOW there is nothing which draws my attention other than the music as a whole.

 

[spiritofmusic]

And Steve, what do you think the rest of us get from our cables, footers etc?

You think we're all looking for NOTICEABLY MORE bass, SHARPER treble, CAVERNOUS depth, GAZILLIONS of details?

No, we're all looking for a holistic experience, where we're sucked into the music, joining the dots, not noticing the dots. Just as you are w yr CCs.

Sure, maybe at the start of system building as inexperienced audiophiles, one is looking for MORE stuff, shock value. But as mature audiophiles, surely the whole idea is LESS show, and MORE tell.

So yr description of CC ownership replicates what the rest of us have w our own choices. Nothing unique or unusual in that.

What would be fascinating is if audiophiles downgraded the cost of their cables...and then went on to simplify their core gear.

Maybe there's a sub $5k tt that does the neutral thing better than most. Audiophiles may DDK their systems by swapping to dirt cheap ancilliaries. But noone is going the whole way w totally affordable gear swaps eg $50k tts to $5k ones. Now THAT would demand respect.

 

[Steve Williams]

Marc

as I said there are many roads to Rome. Those things which I have chosen to use in my system I feel are natural. Needless to say that there are countless other products which do the same. You pick your flavor, pay your money and take your chances.

I have said many times here that a good USB cable trumps other things. Have a look at Mike and his use of a Gobel USB wire. There is just no doubt in my mind. how efficacious a good USB cable can be. Emile has also stated this.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Sure Steve. As do we all.

 

[Blackmorec]

Change of topic. Let’s say I have an Extreme in my system and I visit a CD market and come home with 30 or so discs. What’s the best way to load those into the Extreme’s memory bank?

 

[microstrip]

Change of topic. Let’s say I have an Extreme in my system and I visit a CD market and come home with 30 or so discs. What’s the best way to load those into the Extreme’s memory bank?

Not sure it is the best way but you can rip them with DBpower in another PC and copy them to the Extreme.