I hope they got @romaz ’s permission before taking his content from here and reposting. If not, that would be troublesome.
Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème
- Thread starter CKKeung
- Start date
I hope they got @romaz ’s permission before taking his content from here and reposting. If not, that would be troublesome.
Don’t worry.
No trouble anywhere. They are in the same bucle.
I’m still waiting Matej’s Extreme review that justifies 2019 award.
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Actually legally the content of this forum is the property of Whats Best Forum
From our TOS to which all members agree
https://whatsbestforum.com/threads/terms-of-service.1207/
18. All material posted becomes the property of the What's Best Forum. All postings and material contained in this site are copyrighted and may NOT be republished or reposted without express written consent of forum administrators.
Hi.
All the improvements you mention are the description of the Tripoint impact.
I’ll be very interested to read your experience without the Troy connected.
And yes, the ground cables are the basic ones.
Regards and enjoy your new purchase !!!
Last edited:
The descriptions were taken right after I swapped the Statement for the Extreme. At that point neither of the servers were hooked up to the Tripoint. When I swapped in the Extreme, both servers used the same power cable, usb cable and network setup so the only difference was the server itself. I think a lot of the benefits are from a lower noise floor, like what the Tripoint provides, so I'm not surprised to hear much of the same improvements, but to a bigger extent, a lot bigger.
The Extreme was only hooked up to the Tripoint at the end, before I started the long burn in process.
Now here's something interesting that I was going to share on the Tripoint thread and will probably do so later on. When I did finally hooked up the Tripoint to the Extreme, I had it sharing one of the 3 posts on the back of the Tripoint with the Stromtank.
I read that on the new NG models, one of the 3 posts should be reserved for the AC cable to the wall, so I did just that. The other post was used to signal ground the DCS Bartok via RCA and since you should not mix and match the signal ground and chassis ground on the same Tripoint post it was not shared with anything else. And finally, the last post was used to chassis ground the Stromtank and eventually the Extreme.
Once the Tripoint was hooked up in the morning, I listened to the system for about 4 hours and it sounded awful!! It was sharp and fatiguing, hardness on a lot of tracks, and just a higher noise level than I was use to and the soundstage depth totally collapsed. I chalked it up to the new ground cable having 0 hours of burn in. I ended up texting with Miguel and he asked that I try giving the server and DCS their own posts and having the Stromtank share a post with the AC wall plug and BAM!!! just like that the magic returned. My system sounded the best it had ever had. This was the first time the entire system was grounded to the Tripoint and also with the Extreme in the mix.
Now what I was hearing was all the benefits of Extreme and its dense and grand sound signature, coupled with all the benefits of the Tripoint. This was now on a different level of greatness.
Miguel mentioned that the Stromtank was possibly cross contaminating the server by sharing the same ground post. I also think for something like the StromTank, the AC ground post is the best post on the Tripoint to connect to, even if you had an unused post. I could be wrong, but logically it makes sense since when the Stromtank is on battery power mode, it physically disconnects the AC wall connection inside the unit, so then how was the ground draining from the stromtank if there was no physical connection to the wall? Not sure, maybe I am totally wrong. All I know is that my system currently sounds the best it ever has, and the combination of the Tripoint with the Extreme is utterly jaw dropping.
Once I get a few more hundred hours on the system, I will do more tests with and without the Tripoint connected to the Extreme.
Also, the ground cables I am using are the upgraded Signature Silver SEs, not the stock ones.
how happy are you with the stomtank in your system ?
I have bad power in my area and I am not sure how much it brings to the overall performance of the extreme ?
do you connect all components to the generator ?
extreme , dac and power amps ?
I have bad power in my area and I am not sure how much it brings to the overall performance of the extreme ?
do you connect all components to the generator ?
extreme , dac and power amps ?
I am extremely happy with the StromTank. In my situation, it works better than anything I have tested so far (Soundapplication C-7 conditioner, HFC Ultimate conditioner, Synergistic Research 12 UEF SE, and a few others). All of these cost more than the S1000 model of the Stromtank I am using, heck, even the power cord from the wall to the conditioner (an HFC Pro series) cost more than the StromTank.
Since I am only a headphone user, the S1000 model, the one with the lowest capacity, gives me about 16 hours of play time on battery. I only have two things plugged into it, the Extreme and a DCS Bartok, which is my dac and headphone amp combined. I am using the regular stock $10 power cord from the wall to the stromtank since that is used only when charging the battery and physically disconnects the connection to the power cord inside the Stromtank when switching to battery mode.
I decided to go with a total "off the grid" solution for a few reasons, first is that my sub panel is over 80 feet from my office/listening room, even with a dedicated outlet using 80 feet of 6 awg THHN wire, no matter which conditioner I tried, there was this high frequency fatigue sound that was always there. After speaking to some other audiophiles, I think the reason for that fatiguing sound is all the extra electronics I have in my home, like a full Control4 home automation system, dimming led lights in all the rooms, multiple network switches, Tesla charger, etc all sharing the same sub panel and electricity.
One option I had was to get a separate transformer installed just for my audio, but I would still have over 80 feet of wire run before getting to my outlet. In the end, I decided to go with the simpler solution, which ended up being more cost effective too since I was able to sell one of my power cables to purchase the StromTank. I also live in downtown Chicago so our power quality is not the best to begin with.
If you are running speakers, the S1000 model might not cut it if you have powerful amps. The bigger models do go up in price significantly. Another option is to just run your front end digital system on the Stromtank S1000 and plug the amps to wall or another cheaper conditioner.
Hope this helps with your decision.
To all who have contributed to this thread, my thanks....your experience has been persuasive.....Extreme order placed.
The Stromtank sounds like the perfect solution. Freshly generated, clean power vs. whatever is coming from your Chicago Power Authority plus your ’radio~~~active’ house.
Last edited:
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
It’s even better when you use a solar system on your roof. My garage battery will be coming shortly as well
Most definitely! Some of the conditioners I've tried are known to be the best out there.
There are multi unit condos on my street and houses only a few feet apart. A lot of people crammed in a very short area sharing the same electric grid. Most of my listening is during the day as well, which is when electric use is at its highest. Add to that all the gizmos in my house and a super revealing system, and the decision was easy.
When comparing to my Sound Application C-7 (entry level compared to their TT-7 model), which I still have and periodically test against the stromtank when getting new equipment, I did notice a slight decrease in dynamics, but that was really the only negative I noticed. The pros far outweighed the cons IN MY SYSTEM. The sound is not only much smoother, but has more details and greater depth with the stromtank vs c-7. Has more of that analog sound from the Stromtank.
Edit: Also, even with the Stromtank (and its slightly less dynamics vs C-7), the difference in dynamics from the Extreme vs the Statement was the very first thing I noticed when I switched to the Extreme for the first time.
Last edited:
I also think that while expensive, you‘re also getting your money’s worth from your Extreme, which seems to have been engineered to be quite tolerant of/immune to noisier situations and you could have a fair old bit of radiated high frequency energy with all those devices close-by.
I know Emile stated that he hasn’t gone overboard with his own network, preferring to get great performance from something ‘real world’, which makes perfect sense.
I do have a very noisy environment, and probably one of the reasons the Tripoint NG also made such a huge difference in my system. The Extreme's chassis surely looks and feels like it would be great at blocking radiated RFI/EMI but I am no expert. I do know that the Extreme was a HUGE step up from the Statement and the Statement's chassis is also extremely well built.
I totally buy into the high power/CPU giving the best sound, if done right, but the Extreme has a gazillion other tweaks and upgrades (software and hardware) that Emile has done. Anyone else making a high power server will most likely have to do a lot more than just use high power CPUs to match the Extreme's performance.
After switching back and forth between the Statement and Extreme on my home system, I can confidently say that going from the Statement to the Extreme was a much bigger jump then when I went from the Innuos Zen Mini Mk3 (the cheapest model at $1k) to the Statement. Both times I had both servers on hand to do back and forth switching, nothing scientific though, but differences were easily apparent.
That is quite a statement (pun intended). As one who doesn’t have the means to purchase an Extreme, I’ve wondered what Emile might be able to accomplish if constrained to a much more modest price point - like $5K. I have a feeling it would still beat everything out there at its price and below. Keeping my fingers crossed that one day he might endeavor to shake up the lower end of the market too.
Emile is a genius but not a magician
. Quality parts cost money. So do a lot of other things that go into designing, producing, selling, supporting a state of the art music server. I would not hope for $5K, but maybe he can pull something off for half of the price of the Extreme in the future.
Last edited:
SGM Extreme - 6 week experience: Server / Endpoint
For nearly a decade, it was a long held belief among many computer-based audiophiles, especially with HQP upsampling, that distributing tasks between a powerful but noisy server and a low-power, low-noise endpoint was the pathway to nirvana. The idea here is that the server was responsible for all the heavy lifting while the endpoint was responsible only for playback. For those who did not engage in HQP upsampling, it was a widely held belief that the low-power endpoint was the more important component and this was the basis for devices like the original SOtM sMS-100 and Sonore microRendu. No doubt, these devices have become very popular and have evolved into the much more refined sMS-200ultra Neo SE and opticalRendu that you can buy today. Because of its optical connection, Sonore has gone so far to suggest that in the absence of the need for HQP upsampling, the quality of the upstream server doesn't matter. At all. Or does it?
The premise for this statement is that quality digital file playback is purely about RF noise and an optical connection completely blocks RF noise. Because the oR uses a low-power, low-noise CPU, ultra-low noise linear regulators, low phase noise clocks, and a low noise microSD card for the OS, coupled with a good PSU, this solution should trump everything and in fact, the Rendu series won "Product of the Decade" on another site that would support that it does. Of course, if this was true, why wouldn't a battery powered laptop connected to your DAC via an optical Toslink connection be just as good? Zero ground noise and zero RF. There are, in fact, DAC manufacturers who believe exactly this.
I went ahead and tested and compared the opticalRendu, not to try and discredit it but rather for my own practical considerations. I have a 2nd listening room in my home office that is quite important to me as I spend a fair amount of time here. In fact, I am in my home office now as I type this. For the past 5 years, I have championed the practice of driving high sensitivity speakers on my desktop directly from my DAC. As my DAC has an output impedance of only 0.055 ohms and can output 2 watts at 8 ohms and is stable down to 4 ohms, I found some time ago that this DAC could very capably drive certain speakers without an intermediary speaker amp resulting in unbelievable transparency and when coupled with a small JL Audio subwoofer, could provide very satisfying full range sound from a near field perspective. While my large Wilsons powered by my D'Agostino Momentums more capably provide scale, this small desktop setup is still the more transparent and there is no detail, no matter how subtle, that escapes it. In other words, this setup deserves an Extreme as much as my main listening room but because of size, weight, and cost considerations, an Extreme on my desk is simply not practical. I thought perhaps that an opticalRendu using the Extreme as my Roon Server would work well here.
The opticalRendu does, in fact, work well. It's clear that Sonore has never used a server like the Extreme before because if they had, they would never make the claim that the server doesn't matter. Using an inexpensive i5-based NUC as my Roon Server, the oR sounds absolutely thin and puny compared against the Extreme coupled with the oR. You almost forget that the oR itself uses a low power CPU because the Extreme makes it sound so much fuller and more dynamic UNTIL I decide to bypass the oR and directly connect my Extreme to this DAC and then you realize that the oR significantly holds the Extreme back.
If I switch to my AMD 12-core 3900X Ryzen server as the Roon endpoint, using the Extreme as the Roon Server once again dramatically improves this endpoint but the results are even more satisfying than the oR. Dynamics are even better and there is significantly more body to the sound. If you can power a high-power computer well, I see ZERO benefit to using a weak CPU in an endpoint, even if that endpoint is responsible for something as simple as file playback using RoonBridge.
This finding led me to contemplate building a high-power Roon endpoint for my 2nd listening room but I decided not to go forward with this for 2 important reasons: (1) a high-power endpoint + external PSU would take up a lot of space on my desktop and (2) directly connecting the Extreme to this DAC still sounded A LOT better. Fortunately, I found a better solution that happens to be less expensive.
This inexpensive Monoprice SlimRun USB 3.0 extender is the functional equivalent of MSB's Pro USB adapter for a non-MSB DAC and comes in lengths of up to 164 feet and for the 65 foot length that I am using, I paid only $200 USD. Unlike a lot of other optical USB solutions, it is backward compatible with USB 2.0 and provides a pure optical data connection from server to DAC. While 5V VBUS and power to the receiving module is generally provided by the server's USB port, it can be fully bypassed with a 5V battery (or in my case, an LPS-1.2) resulting in complete galvanic isolation. To ensure that this is the case, I have shut off the 5V VBUS coming from the JCAT Femto USB card by pulling its jumper. Unlike the Corning optical USB cable (which I own and sounds horrible), this fiber USB extender when coupled with Sablon's latest USB cable sounds REALLY good and, to my ears, is superior to the Intona USB 3.0 isolator (which I find flattens the sound stage). There is a very obvious drop in noise floor resulting in greater clarity and definition with no perceptible downside that I can hear. The further benefit of this complete galvanic isolation is that I no longer hear any benefits from grounding the Extreme. This solution has proven so effective that I use it for both listening rooms but just as importantly, I am now fully leveraging the Extreme in both listening rooms without the use of a sound degrading endpoint.
Finally, I was curious to know how the Extreme would sound as a Roon endpoint while using my AMD 12-core server as the Roon server. Would the Extreme benefit from offloading some of the work to another high-power device? The presentation was full and dynamic but I found that the AMD server actually slowed down the Extreme and I say this quite literally. In this configuration, the Extreme sounds slower and it is a definite step backward. Thus far, the Extreme sounds best standalone.
More to follow...
For nearly a decade, it was a long held belief among many computer-based audiophiles, especially with HQP upsampling, that distributing tasks between a powerful but noisy server and a low-power, low-noise endpoint was the pathway to nirvana. The idea here is that the server was responsible for all the heavy lifting while the endpoint was responsible only for playback. For those who did not engage in HQP upsampling, it was a widely held belief that the low-power endpoint was the more important component and this was the basis for devices like the original SOtM sMS-100 and Sonore microRendu. No doubt, these devices have become very popular and have evolved into the much more refined sMS-200ultra Neo SE and opticalRendu that you can buy today. Because of its optical connection, Sonore has gone so far to suggest that in the absence of the need for HQP upsampling, the quality of the upstream server doesn't matter. At all. Or does it?
The premise for this statement is that quality digital file playback is purely about RF noise and an optical connection completely blocks RF noise. Because the oR uses a low-power, low-noise CPU, ultra-low noise linear regulators, low phase noise clocks, and a low noise microSD card for the OS, coupled with a good PSU, this solution should trump everything and in fact, the Rendu series won "Product of the Decade" on another site that would support that it does. Of course, if this was true, why wouldn't a battery powered laptop connected to your DAC via an optical Toslink connection be just as good? Zero ground noise and zero RF. There are, in fact, DAC manufacturers who believe exactly this.
I went ahead and tested and compared the opticalRendu, not to try and discredit it but rather for my own practical considerations. I have a 2nd listening room in my home office that is quite important to me as I spend a fair amount of time here. In fact, I am in my home office now as I type this. For the past 5 years, I have championed the practice of driving high sensitivity speakers on my desktop directly from my DAC. As my DAC has an output impedance of only 0.055 ohms and can output 2 watts at 8 ohms and is stable down to 4 ohms, I found some time ago that this DAC could very capably drive certain speakers without an intermediary speaker amp resulting in unbelievable transparency and when coupled with a small JL Audio subwoofer, could provide very satisfying full range sound from a near field perspective. While my large Wilsons powered by my D'Agostino Momentums more capably provide scale, this small desktop setup is still the more transparent and there is no detail, no matter how subtle, that escapes it. In other words, this setup deserves an Extreme as much as my main listening room but because of size, weight, and cost considerations, an Extreme on my desk is simply not practical. I thought perhaps that an opticalRendu using the Extreme as my Roon Server would work well here.
The opticalRendu does, in fact, work well. It's clear that Sonore has never used a server like the Extreme before because if they had, they would never make the claim that the server doesn't matter. Using an inexpensive i5-based NUC as my Roon Server, the oR sounds absolutely thin and puny compared against the Extreme coupled with the oR. You almost forget that the oR itself uses a low power CPU because the Extreme makes it sound so much fuller and more dynamic UNTIL I decide to bypass the oR and directly connect my Extreme to this DAC and then you realize that the oR significantly holds the Extreme back.
If I switch to my AMD 12-core 3900X Ryzen server as the Roon endpoint, using the Extreme as the Roon Server once again dramatically improves this endpoint but the results are even more satisfying than the oR. Dynamics are even better and there is significantly more body to the sound. If you can power a high-power computer well, I see ZERO benefit to using a weak CPU in an endpoint, even if that endpoint is responsible for something as simple as file playback using RoonBridge.
This finding led me to contemplate building a high-power Roon endpoint for my 2nd listening room but I decided not to go forward with this for 2 important reasons: (1) a high-power endpoint + external PSU would take up a lot of space on my desktop and (2) directly connecting the Extreme to this DAC still sounded A LOT better. Fortunately, I found a better solution that happens to be less expensive.
This inexpensive Monoprice SlimRun USB 3.0 extender is the functional equivalent of MSB's Pro USB adapter for a non-MSB DAC and comes in lengths of up to 164 feet and for the 65 foot length that I am using, I paid only $200 USD. Unlike a lot of other optical USB solutions, it is backward compatible with USB 2.0 and provides a pure optical data connection from server to DAC. While 5V VBUS and power to the receiving module is generally provided by the server's USB port, it can be fully bypassed with a 5V battery (or in my case, an LPS-1.2) resulting in complete galvanic isolation. To ensure that this is the case, I have shut off the 5V VBUS coming from the JCAT Femto USB card by pulling its jumper. Unlike the Corning optical USB cable (which I own and sounds horrible), this fiber USB extender when coupled with Sablon's latest USB cable sounds REALLY good and, to my ears, is superior to the Intona USB 3.0 isolator (which I find flattens the sound stage). There is a very obvious drop in noise floor resulting in greater clarity and definition with no perceptible downside that I can hear. The further benefit of this complete galvanic isolation is that I no longer hear any benefits from grounding the Extreme. This solution has proven so effective that I use it for both listening rooms but just as importantly, I am now fully leveraging the Extreme in both listening rooms without the use of a sound degrading endpoint.
Finally, I was curious to know how the Extreme would sound as a Roon endpoint while using my AMD 12-core server as the Roon server. Would the Extreme benefit from offloading some of the work to another high-power device? The presentation was full and dynamic but I found that the AMD server actually slowed down the Extreme and I say this quite literally. In this configuration, the Extreme sounds slower and it is a definite step backward. Thus far, the Extreme sounds best standalone.
More to follow...
SGM Extreme - 6 week experience: Fuses
This one is personal and so YMMV. I have not tried the Brimar fuse which I know is popular, especially in Asia. If I can get a hold of one, I will gladly try one. I have tried the Hifi Tuning Supreme, SR20, SR Red, SR Black, SR Blue, and all the Beeswax fuses. With each SR fuse release, I have found resolution to improve but not always in a purely positive manner. I found the Blue more resolving than the Black but also a touch bright and so I found myself having to use a Beeswax fuse in some components just to balance some of this brightness. In this regard, I found the Extreme's stock fuse to sound better than either the Blue (too bright) or the Beeswax SHD (too slow and rounded).
The latest Orange fuse by SR is the exception. I really like this fuse. It is lightning fast and is more resolving and with greater air than the Blue, Beeswax SHD, or the stock fuse but also there is an immersive quality to it that makes it sound more musical than the others. The improvement is not so subtle and is easily worth $160. It is the only fuse that I have been pleased with in each of my components and so just like @isquirrel, I am now using it system wide. This is the first time I have been pleased with using one type of fuse system wide.
I have tried an Orange fuse with a rating of 4A, 5A, and 10A on the Extreme and I can hear no difference among the different ratings and so I am happy to use the recommended 4A fuse for my Extreme. I have stored away another 4A fuse and will periodically compare it against the 4A fuse in the Extreme now to see if it degrades over time.
More to follow...
This one is personal and so YMMV. I have not tried the Brimar fuse which I know is popular, especially in Asia. If I can get a hold of one, I will gladly try one. I have tried the Hifi Tuning Supreme, SR20, SR Red, SR Black, SR Blue, and all the Beeswax fuses. With each SR fuse release, I have found resolution to improve but not always in a purely positive manner. I found the Blue more resolving than the Black but also a touch bright and so I found myself having to use a Beeswax fuse in some components just to balance some of this brightness. In this regard, I found the Extreme's stock fuse to sound better than either the Blue (too bright) or the Beeswax SHD (too slow and rounded).
The latest Orange fuse by SR is the exception. I really like this fuse. It is lightning fast and is more resolving and with greater air than the Blue, Beeswax SHD, or the stock fuse but also there is an immersive quality to it that makes it sound more musical than the others. The improvement is not so subtle and is easily worth $160. It is the only fuse that I have been pleased with in each of my components and so just like @isquirrel, I am now using it system wide. This is the first time I have been pleased with using one type of fuse system wide.
I have tried an Orange fuse with a rating of 4A, 5A, and 10A on the Extreme and I can hear no difference among the different ratings and so I am happy to use the recommended 4A fuse for my Extreme. I have stored away another 4A fuse and will periodically compare it against the 4A fuse in the Extreme now to see if it degrades over time.
More to follow...
Absolutely in accordance with their opinions on the Blue and Orange SR.
And yet I have to disagree with the opinions made by an esteemed member of this forum in the Audiophile Fuses thread: they don't need 27K Hours to burn, nor take them to be blessed by Ronald Macdonald changes the sound.
