Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[romaz]

Hi Roy,

I may be reading this incorrectly but am I to understand that grounding issues can be affected by vibration?

Geoff

Yes, any audio component with a power source will vibrate. Vibrations result in the creation of unwanted DC. If this DC isn't grounded away, it leaks onto the next component through the interconnecting cable. This is what is referred to as leakage current and is the basis for a ground loop. Unlike traditional grounding devices, a Setchi box is designed to cancel out a component's vibrational energy. Alternatively, if you apply complete galvanic isolation between 2 components such as with an optical connection between the server and DAC, then you prevent this leakage current from reaching the DAC.

In Emile's own words:

"Let me just add the relationship between capacitors and vibration to this discussion.
1) A voltage applied to a capacitor causes it to vibrate.
2) Vibration applied to a capacitor causes it to generate a voltage.

It should be clear that neither of these are desirable traits in our electronics."

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...ion-in-audio-systems.29360/page-5#post-607406

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...is-setchi-is-quite-special.24081/#post-476522

 

[microstrip]

Yes, any audio component with a power source will vibrate. Vibrations result in the creation of unwanted DC. (...)

Although I agree mostly with you on the effect of vibrations in components, why do you think vibrations create DC?

 

[Taiko Audio]

Although I agree mostly with you on the effect of vibrations in components, why do you think vibrations create DC?

That would indeed be a technically incorrect description when taken literally but the intent is clear

I particularly like how Kemet explains the effect in this article:

http://www.kemet.com/Lists/TechnicalArticles/Attachments/88/2006 07 ArrowAsiaTimes - MLC Noise.pdf

 

[Mike Lavigne]

i have Entreq grounding boxes used to ground my bass towers. i have ground wires connected to the 2 plate amps for each tower, then connected to my Entreq Poseidon + three Silver Minimus boxes. the bass towers only go to 40-45hz. nothing above that.

you might assume footers for these Entreq boxes could never be audible. how could they?

i first tried this using the stock wood footers on the Entreq on my hardwood over concrete floor. sounded very ultra detailed but also a bit glassy and tipped up. then i put Wave Kinetics A10 U8 decoupling footers under all the Entreq grounding boxes and the tonality calmed down to a natural level, no more edge or sheen.

this was nothing subtle, it was a 'poke in the nose' obvious thing. and this is grounding on bass towers that don't reproduce over 50hz. not that overtones from the bass don't have considerable effect on higher frequencies. because it is easy to hear how the bass towers improve the top end for sure.

 

[wil]

SGM Extreme - 6 week experience: Network revisited
The EdgeRouter is presently being used as my "dirty" switch and is connected to my Roku and Oppo while also being connected to my wifi access point via optical (SFP).

More to follow...

Romaz, As you are using the EdgeRouter as the "dirty" switch for no audio purposes, could you elaborate on how it's addition improves your audio performance given that you seem to have the audio optically isolated from the router? Thanks

 

[microstrip]

That would indeed be a technically incorrect description when taken literally but the intent is clear

I particularly like how Kemet explains the effect in this article:

http://www.kemet.com/Lists/TechnicalArticles/Attachments/88/2006 07 ArrowAsiaTimes - MLC Noise.pdf

It is why I object to such inaccurate and misleading descriptions of vibrational effects in high-end audio electronics. Piezoelectrics in ceramic capacitors is described in any text book on applied electronics as a problem inherent to this type of capacitors and not existing in other types. We are just addressing other type of sensitivity, based in very different type of physics and much harder to explain or accept. Better saying that when an elephant steps a biased capacitor you can measure a signal ...

IMHO no one has a good technical explanation for the so called "grounding" devices. Most of them are just ground noise injectors, but we like their sound properties ...

 

[Taiko Audio]

It is why I object to such inaccurate and misleading descriptions of vibrational effects in high-end audio electronics.

Are you referring to “vibrational effects” in general terms or specifically in a relation to grounding / “grounding devices”?

 

[romaz]

Although I agree mostly with you on the effect of vibrations in components, why do you think vibrations create DC?

Yes, perhaps I extrapolated too freely as I can offer no scientific explanation .

But here is the basis for my logic, as flawed as it may be. If Emile claims that a Setchi box works through addressing a component's vibrational energy and a Setchi box results in differences that are audible, then it's reasonable to presume there is a basis to Emile's claim, that vibrational energy results in "some type of noise" that the Setchi box is addressing. Moving on, if I apply galvanic isolation between one component and the next via an optical connection and this galvanic isolation now renders the Setchi boxes useless, then you can see how I might draw the conclusion that I did since an optical connection blocks DC current.

The point to be made, however, is that even if somehow vibrational energy leads in some way to the creation of leakage currents that can be mitigated by optical isolation, this is certainly not the only way vibrational energy impacts audio. Even with optical isolation in place, the footers I tried still made significant differences. It could also explain why the impact of footers in my system are not as great as I was expecting. This is, of course, pure conjecture.

 

[Steve williams]

Even with optical isolation in place, the footers I tried still made significant differences.

Emile has all too frequently commented here that a good set of footers. a good power cord and a good USB cable will suffice

Roy
without being the devils advocate here isnt it safe to say that your comments pertain to how you are adjusting tonality in your system and wouldn’t it also be safe to say that what you claim to be best applies to your ears and your system so much so that you could add “”YMMV” as there are many ways to skin a cat

 

[romaz]

Emile has all too frequently commented here that a good set of footers. a good power cord and a good USB cable will suffice

Roy
without being the devils advocate here isnt it safe to say that your comments pertain to how you are adjusting tonality in your system and wouldn’t it also be safe to say that what you claim to be best applies to your ears and your system so much so that you could add “”YMMV” as there are many ways to skin a cat

Agreed, Steve. Look at how often I have used the term "YMMV" in my posts -- quite a bit. What I offer are my own subjective observations given the limitations of my ears within the flaws of my system just like anyone else. Also, we each have biases and as I have stated my biases before, those should be taken into account. Finally, I am careful never to claim something is best from an absolute standpoint because who am I to make that claim. I have stated only my preferences. In the high-end segment, rarely is it "good versus bad" but rather "great versus slightly better."

 

[dminches]

will suffice

Steve, since when have you been ok with things that “suffice?” After all, your community is called “what’s best.”



Just having some fun on a lazy Sunday afternoon.

 

[microstrip]

Are you referring to “vibrational effects” in general terms or specifically in a relation to grounding / “grounding devices”?

In general, and in this case to particular to so called "grounding" devices. BTW, I know some of them - not all - use piezzo electric or similar materials.

 

[romaz]

Romaz, As you are using the EdgeRouter as the "dirty" switch for no audio purposes, could you elaborate on how it's addition improves your audio performance given that you seem to have the audio optically isolated from the router? Thanks

Wil, when I use the term "clean" versus "dirty," it isn't from the standpoint of RF as clearly, with optical cabling between switch and the Extreme, RF isn't being transmitted. The switch closest to the Extreme somehow sounds better if there is nothing else connected to that switch.

 

[microstrip]

Yes, perhaps I extrapolated too freely as I can offer no scientific explanation .

But here is the basis for my logic, as flawed as it may be. If Emile claims that a Setchi box works through addressing a component's vibrational energy and a Setchi box results in differences that are audible, then it's reasonable to presume there is a basis to Emile's claim, that vibrational energy results in "some type of noise" that the Setchi box is addressing. Moving on, if I apply galvanic isolation between one component and the next via an optical connection and this galvanic isolation now renders the Setchi boxes useless, then you can see how I might draw the conclusion that I did since an optical connection blocks DC current.

The point to be made, however, is that even if somehow vibrational energy leads in some way to the creation of leakage currents that can be mitigated by optical isolation, this is certainly not the only way vibrational energy impacts audio. Even with optical isolation in place, the footers I tried still made significant differences. It could also explain why the impact of footers in my system are not as great as I was expecting. This is, of course, pure conjecture.

Romaz,

Although I read with pleasure your observations and findings, my main objection to your logic is that often you mix Emile points in your presentation of arguments, extrapolating things he did not say and IMHO can't be extracted from his always prudent and safe writings.

Even the apparently simple concept of galvanic isolation can be misleading, as most of the time it applies only to DC and very low frequencies. Audio noise can be transmitted by RF carriers.

BTW, I do not have experience with Setchi boxes. But IMHO we will never find anything about the way they work from data about their effects on systems, the only way will be dissecting them and going back to physics. Surely YMMV.

 

[microstrip]

Wil, when I use the term "clean" versus "dirty," it isn't from the standpoint of RF as clearly, with optical cabling between switch and the Extreme, RF isn't being transmitted. The switch closest to the Extreme somehow sounds better if there is nothing else connected to that switch.

RF is transmitted in optical links. Some people will tell us that its extremely high bandwidth makes it more dangerous than cable ...

 

[nenon]

Emile has all too frequently commented here that a good set of footers. a good power cord and a good USB cable will suffice

Roy
without being the devils advocate here isnt it safe to say that your comments pertain to how you are adjusting tonality in your system and wouldn’t it also be safe to say that what you claim to be best applies to your ears and your system so much so that you could add “”YMMV” as there are many ways to skin a cat

@romaz - keep up the good work! We all have learned so much from you and your experiments. One of my concerns when I heard you purchased an Extreme was that you would be done (end game) and your amazing experiments and reports would stop (and you will finally start listening to music ). But it turned out I was wrong. You are actually providing even more valuable information now. All the experiments you are doing in the context of the Extreme with network equipment, vibration isolation, grounding, USB cables, PCIe cards in the Extreme, etc. give us a really good perspective and a lot of new ideas came up from those experiments. As I am writing this, I am plugging in a Monoprice SlimRun HDMI cable (HDMI, not USB) to see what effects it would have on the I2S connection between my DAC and custom server. Your server / endpoint comparison was extremely helpful on many different levels!

@Steve Williams - if not for people like romaz, I would not spend a minute of my time here. I am a fairly new member, but my observations about your posts here so far have been that you like your CenterStage footers and your uber expensive power cord, and you don't want to try anything else, because you don't think there would be any improvement. I am exaggerating of course but I hope you get my point! And that's okay, but let people like romaz push the limits and post freely. He has said YMMV more than he should have. Those network tweaks for example have a pretty significant impact on any resolving system, especially for those people that have "cable" Internet rather the "fiber optic" one. We can't change you, but please don't kill that discussion - I find it very useful and it's perfectly inline with the "Taiko Extreme" topic and the "What's Best" forum.

Sorry about the offtopic message, but when people spend so much time and energy to describe their experiments - they should receive a big "thank you" and appreciation, not unnecessary criticisms.

 

[dminches]

Romaz,

Although I read with pleasure your observations and findings, my main objection to your logic is that often you mix Emile points in your presentation of arguments, extrapolating things he did not say and IMHO can't be extracted from his always prudent and safe writings.

Doesn’t he even say that his logic could be flawed?

Personally, I find his posts quite informational even if they only apply to his thinking.

 

[romaz]

Although I read with pleasure your observations and findings, my main objection to your logic is that often you mix Emile points in your presentation of arguments, extrapolating things he did not say and IMHO can't be extracted from his always prudent and safe writings.

I agree that I should have been more clear about which statements were my own conjecture and which belonged to Emile in that post. My apologies for any inferences that were inappropriately made. I am a clinical physician and not a physicist and so I offer no expert claims in this regard.

Even the apparently simple concept of galvanic isolation can be misleading, as most of the time it applies only to DC and very low frequencies. Audio noise can be transmitted by RF carriers..

Yes, this is why I extrapolated that DC is being somehow created by vibrational energy. No doubt audio noise can be transmitted by other means and obviously, not just RF.

BTW, I do not have experience with Setchi boxes. But IMHO we will never find anything about the way they work from data about their effects on systems, the only way will be dissecting them and going back to physics. Surely YMMV.

I completely agree.

 

[romaz]

RF is transmitted in optical links. Some people will tell us that its extremely high bandwidth makes it more dangerous than cable ...

This is an interesting statement. Obviously, an optical connection is not a panacea solution.

 

[Steve williams]

Steve, since when have you been ok with things that “suffice?” After all, your community is called “what’s best.”



Just having some fun on a lazy Sunday afternoon.

Here!’s my point in this lazy Sunday......

IMO the Extreme is truly a break out product as I have said so many times it has changed the way I listen to music. For me all these tweaks and comparisons are great data points but applicable only in that system and only to the users ears.


Guys at some point rather than listening and comparing one router to another or Ethernet vs optical or fuses etc etc I suggest just listen to the Extreme. Emile is a wiz and he often offers caveats and about which I took his advice

the Extreme makes beautiful music on its own I say all of the other is merely adding a tone control to your system

Granted I have taken steps to optimize my Extrene but my path is the “KISS” technique

Keep It Simple Stupid

i can tell you that I’ve been down all of these rabbit holes. After awhile the paths go in so many ways that one tends to forget what the tonality of the Extreme was and the rabbit hole goes deeper

At some point sit down and stop listening to sounds and start listening to music. The Extreme is .....Extreme.

i can tell you that analog was heretofore my a priori. The addition of the Lampi Pacific has brought me so close to analog that many times for me it does come spooky close. I picked two sets of tubes to use and after almost 2 months I have had no desire to put in the second set of tubes as the first sounds damn good. I was going to change tubes today but the music is sounding so good that perhaps tomorrow or another day.