Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

With respect to the Taiko Extreme how do you connect it to your DAC

  • USB

    Votes: 49 69.0%
  • Ethernet

    Votes: 10 14.1%
  • Both USB and Ethernet

    Votes: 6 8.5%
  • AES/EBU

    Votes: 8 11.3%
  • Dual AES/EBU

    Votes: 1 1.4%
  • Other

    Votes: 5 7.0%

  • Total voters
    71

Taiko Audio

Industry Expert
Feb 10, 2017
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taikoaudio.com
Do you know yet what size the input pin will be for the DC cable? Thanks
Standard DC barrel, 5.5x2.1 or 5.5x2.5, but it may just have an internal LPS, or that could be an option, the goal here is to provide a certain guaranteed performance level so we may end up taking all variables out of the equation. Bar the cabling used of course.
 

howiebrou

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2012
1,395
1,131
400
Standard DC barrel, 5.5x2.1 or 5.5x2.5, but it may just have an internal LPS, or that could be an option, the goal here is to provide a certain guaranteed performance level so we may end up taking all variables out of the equation. Bar the cabling used of course.
Nice. I would prefer an internal LPS and knowing Emile it will be sufficient quality to not need to resort to any tweaking. Saves having yet another box hanging around.
 

onlychild

Active Member
Sep 18, 2019
53
130
35
Nice. I would prefer an internal LPS and knowing Emile it will be sufficient quality to not need to resort to any tweaking. Saves having yet another box hanging around.
I would actually prefer a DC barrel input so I can use one custom LPS with one high end power cord to power the Taiko switch, modem/router, and the M12 switch.

I've had the M12 for about two weeks now and its hard to imagine my system without it. Even if I do end up taking it out after getting the Taiko switch, I would still like to power the Taiko switch, ONT and the Gateway modem with one LPS/power cord.
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
11,453
2,326
603
E. England
momentous news gents, my extreme arrived today! got it rigged up using some spare cables. it's not super optimal but basically i just wanted to get it up and running. roon discovered it as asia, wasapi, and jplay so i opted for the jplay one and it's singing. first track, i deff notice something interesting happening. i hope to be in touch with emile soon about getting this set up the right way.

also, when my schedule frees up a bit/if i have some free time, i'm going to create a separate thread where i will detail how its singing on a daily or weekly basis just as i get my bearings to give more of a "what it's like to own/what i'm hearing" impression rather than a review after months of owning. i'm going to compare it to my tremendous rockna wavedream net server. the taiko is in a different league price wise but it has its work cut out for it with how well the rockna does. i'm not a paid reviewer or anything so these are just my observations as this piece opens up and how it compares.
Skanda, would be fascinated to read some comparisons. I know the Rockna is highly respected. Some interesting comments between the two would certainly help fix Rockna's position if we assume Extreme is the ultimate aspiration level of any server.
 

Skanda

Active Member
May 3, 2020
83
106
33
i started the thread here: https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...a-taiko-extreme-and-then-this-happened.31014/
currently have some impressions up from the first couple of days. hopefully you guys don't find my writing too rambly haha and maybe you'll like some of the tracks i'm playing and they'll make it on to your respective playlists.

i enjoy writing and hopefully that comes through in my impressions. however, i am always looking to improve so feedback is always appreciated!
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
11,453
2,326
603
E. England
Skanda, you're keeping it real Lol (if anything high end can be considered real).
Nice, breezy, informative style. And a real passion for your musical genres.
I know the Rockna is hugely regarded. I'm aware of one owner who's told me it trounces his previous universally praised (and much much better known) server.
So, if the Extreme really shows clear blue sky to the Rockna, that's imho a massive feather in Emile's cap.
And it's totally refreshing to have non-audiophile, (mainly) non-upsampled music, not known for audiophile SQ to be the playlist.
We all know how well Extreme does w already stellar mastered 4xDSD Channel Classics. To hear how it does on music w no audiophile pretensions, maybe this is even more telling of Extreme's capabilities.
 
Sep 9, 2018
51
44
23
momentous news gents, my extreme arrived today! got it rigged up using some spare cables. it's not super optimal but basically i just wanted to get it up and running. roon discovered it as asia, wasapi, and jplay so i opted for the jplay one and it's singing. first track, i deff notice something interesting happening. i hope to be in touch with emile soon about getting this set up the right way.

also, when my schedule frees up a bit/if i have some free time, i'm going to create a separate thread where i will detail how its singing on a daily or weekly basis just as i get my bearings to give more of a "what it's like to own/what i'm hearing" impression rather than a review after months of owning. i'm going to compare it to my tremendous rockna wavedream net server. the taiko is in a different league price wise but it has its work cut out for it with how well the rockna does. i'm not a paid reviewer or anything so these are just my observations as this piece opens up and how it compares.
The rockna wavedream net server, already defeated head and shoulders my diy server( exactly same server as romaz but powered with 2 keces p8 12 and 19 v)
Waiting fir this dual comparaison cause i know what the net can do.
 

dipstef

New Member
Nov 16, 2019
3
4
3
39
Hard to pinpoint the exact cause, RoonAppliance now utilizes ~120 execution threads and ~1.5Gb memory, and yes there is an increase in network activity.

With that said, the question is how relevant it all is as it still only occupies ~3% of the Extreme’s memory capacity with a below 0.2% CPU load during music playback. Couple that to a now virtually identical sound from the ~0.3Gb / 5 threads TAS application appears to make it more a matter of how the environment is configured.
I am slightly familiar with this and somehow possible if one is interested to have closer inspection on what constitutes RoonAppliance, part of that threads overload is due server side analytics, device discoverability, local database management, etc..
Many other things going on rather than just playback functionalities.

My question is beside network overload degrading to the overall server performance on audio playback, how much thread context switching to this degree is a penalising factor ?

Dear WBF community,

We are open to suggestions on how you would like your music browsing and discovery service experience implemented.

Let's start with some general background information. To be able to provide any browsing or discovery service beyond folder based browsing we need metadata. Metadata can be stored with files in something called a ID3 container. This includes information like artist, genre, label, song titles, album name and track numbers. For classical music this can become more expansive as there are can be a desire for additional information like the name of the piece(s) of music, the composer(s), the album it's from, the performers, the recording venue, the label that released the recording and the year it was recorded.

There are cloud based metadata providers who have build and maintain a database where they collect and provide all kinds of information on your files. As you can imagine this is a considerable task. Roon provides this service, you need a Roon subscription to access this and it's likely the biggest part of what they base their purchase price on. Data has become a valuable commodity. Music streaming services like Qobuz, Tidal, Spotify, Apple, Deezer, Amazon, Last.FM, etc provide this service as well. It's good to note that you are generally paying to access the metadata they have collected and organised for you. You are also "at their mercy" on what data they provide on a query to their databases (search). Most, if not all, of these also provide music discovery services extending beyond for example showing all albums released by a specific artist. This used to be based on generating recommendations based on music in the same genre and/or release period with similar popularity. Nowadays most music service providers have moved on to a tracking model where they base recommendations on the listening behaviour of others similar to your own behaviour (the questionable privacy invasion thing).

To sum up:

For music browsing we have the following options:

1) Folder based browsing, where you organise your music collection by maintaining a folder structure on your physical drive like \artist\album\track.
2) Database browsing where the database information is provided on ID3 (file based) information where you can be in control of your metadata if so desired, metadata is usually already included in your files by cd ripper software or by the online store where you purchased and downloaded your albums from.
3) Using a 3rd party tool which can replace the metadata of your files with metadata provided by their online database, works otherwise the same as 2)
4) Database browsing where metadata is fetched from an online metadata provider system, this is basically what you are doing when you are using online streaming services, though not when using Roon as they provide their own metadata even when using services like Qobuz and Tidal. This is probably why you sometimes can't find albums on Qobuz/Tidal when searching for them in Roon.

My own personal preference is for a hybrid system. I'd like to be "in charge" of the metadata of my own files. I'd like to use the metadata provided by online streaming services like Qobuz and Tidal for when I'm streaming files and I'd like to search directly in their own database. I would also like to be able to get additional information on the music I'm playing on demand, like reviews, background information, maybe on occasion even the songtext, for both my own library as for the streaming services I'm using. For music discovery I do not have very large issues with my privacy using a tracking based service, the best service for this seems to be Spotify btw, unfortunately they don't provide lossless music.

Feel free to share your own preferences, desires and/or wishes and we will take those into account.
This sounds great,

As there has been discussion on Roon being somewhat a performance bottleneck, and this being an implementation that would take care of various aspects that effect performance, I'd like to throw in some implementation ideas (Apologies if it gets technical):

I am overall skeptical about the local database approach, I am questioning wether that is a feature that is actually needed or just something to be thought to be a convenience a few years ago (Roon extends over a legacy Meridian system).
Chances are little that servers are not connected to the internet if not zero, hence user "databases" can potentially be stored and queried in the cloud offloading certain aspects (maybe not that significant) and making the overall architecture and implementation more simple (the local data is often obfuscated and de-obfuscated in case of Roon) and less heavy on the server end.

This as consequence can simplify and offload processing elements that are part of the server (referring to Roon) on the client side (resolving user library, query metadata and all sort of management) by interacting with the cloud and not the local server.
Getting rid of that network communication (big facepalm on server side analytics in this case) and cpu cycles on the server end.

A server just taking charge of a minimal set of responsibilities (if not just one), which is audio playback :), hence providing a common API for the client to play against a given playback system (Taiko Audio Player, HqPlayer, etc).


I believe Roon is a great data company, and their metadata and recommendation service to be excellent, and frankly not that easy to get right (I think by the day they have the best recommendation system, but I must confess I haven't checked Spotify in a few years and they have a lot of brain power in this domain) . In a perfect world they wold be a SAS company selling their metadata to third parties, but I guess that is part of vendor lockin in their platform.

Lots of Roon metadata is actually from open source datasets, as I am interested in this field my self (and in particular music recommendation) I am trying to figure out which degree of their metadata is actually proprietary.

Looking forward to see Taiko audio players in previous generation SGM devices soon :D
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
8,869
2,658
770
just received the Sonore Optical switch recommended by Emile, but cannot get it to handshake with the Extreme. already power cycled the Extreme once, now doing it for a second time.

the Sonore is replacing a Startech optical switch, which has dip switches. the Sonore has no switches at all, just an on/off toggle on the LPS. and i'm getting the green flashing lights on the Sonore indicating data transfer. but the Extreme is silent.

any ideas? is there a sequence i need to follow?
 

kennyb123

Well-Known Member
Nov 30, 2012
213
82
260
Kirkland, WA
any ideas? is there a sequence i need to follow?
Try to reseat all the connections if you haven’t done so already. Sometimes those fiber connectors need a bit more of a nudge to seat properly. And if that doesn’t do it, reinsert the SFP to make sure it’s all the way in.
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
8,869
2,658
770
Try to reseat all the connections if you haven’t done so already. Sometimes those fiber connectors need a bit more of a nudge to seat properly. And if that doesn’t do it, reinsert the SFP to make sure it’s all the way in.
thank you for the response. i will try those suggestions.

can you tell me should i use the recently upgraded Finisar SFP modules or the SFP module that came with the Sonore? i do use the Finisar at the other end of my fibre at the Extreme.
 

kennyb123

Well-Known Member
Nov 30, 2012
213
82
260
Kirkland, WA
thank you for the response. i will try those suggestions.

can you tell me should i use the recently upgraded Finisar SFP modules or the SFP module that came with the Sonore? i do use the Finisar at the other end of my fibre at the Extreme.
You should definitely use the same brand and model of SFP on each side. I know it can work with mixing but to first establish that everything works, I’d recommend the Finisar SFPs on both ends.

You most definitely don’t want to use the Sonore on one end and the Finisar on the other.
 
Likes: Taiko Audio

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
8,869
2,658
770
score!!!

replacing the SFP module supplied with the Sonore with the Finisar SFP module did the trick!!!!

thanks.
 

wil

Well-Known Member
Jul 22, 2015
308
128
128
You should definitely use the same brand and model of SFP on each side. I know it can work with mixing but to first establish that everything works, I’d recommend the Finisar SFPs on both ends.

You most definitely don’t want to use the Sonore on one end and the Finisar on the other.
I think the SFP supplied by Sonore is multimode? If so, that won't work with the single mode Finisar.
 
Likes: nuway

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
8,869
2,658
770
Also, 5 volts powering the OM sounds best for me and make it work cooler.
yes; using the 5v LPS. can't say it works best as i have not compared it; but the addition of the Sonore is a nice (more than a little) improvement. this is quite a ways more jump than adding the Finisar's a month ago. hearing quite a ways farther into the music.
 
Likes: Taiko Audio

Taiko Audio

Industry Expert
Feb 10, 2017
1,408
1,814
260
The Netherlands
taikoaudio.com
My question is beside network overload degrading to the overall server performance on audio playback, how much thread context switching to this degree is a penalising factor ?
Hard to root out but thread activity and new thread creation is high and continuous, even when having been idle for days.

This as consequence can simplify and offload processing elements that are part of the server (referring to Roon) on the client side (resolving user library, query metadata and all sort of management) by interacting with the cloud and not the local server.
Getting rid of that network communication (big facepalm on server side analytics in this case) and cpu cycles on the server end.
Network communication is relatively more harmful then CPU and local disk activity right now. With TAS we have can have zero disk and network activity during playback, it just syncs the track playback progress indicator every 60 seconds or so (configurable).

I believe Roon is a great data company, and their metadata and recommendation service to be excellent, and frankly not that easy to get right (I think by the day they have the best recommendation system, but I must confess I haven't checked Spotify in a few years and they have a lot of brain power in this domain) . In a perfect world they wold be a SAS company selling their metadata to third parties, but I guess that is part of vendor lockin in their platform.
Agree! I'd say Spotify discovery services are very good now, arguably better, but the data it's based on is sampled from a non audiophile user base, then again, Roon's userbase appears to be increasingly non audiophile as well.

Lots of Roon metadata is actually from open source datasets, as I am interested in this field my self (and in particular music recommendation) I am trying to figure out which degree of their metadata is actually proprietary.
If you figure that out we would be interested too.

Looking forward to see Taiko audio players in previous generation SGM devices soon :D
It will be available for all our models!
 
Likes: matthias

Taiko Audio

Industry Expert
Feb 10, 2017
1,408
1,814
260
The Netherlands
taikoaudio.com
score!!!

replacing the SFP module supplied with the Sonore with the Finisar SFP module did the trick!!!!

thanks.
Very nice to see this resolved by forum community help at 4AM our time! Thanks @kennyb123

yes; using the 5v LPS. can't say it works best as i have not compared it; but the addition of the Sonore is a nice (more than a little) improvement. this is quite a ways more jump than adding the Finisar's a month ago. hearing quite a ways farther into the music.
Happy you like it, sensitivity to the network environment has increased over the past few months, our upcoming switch and the TAS software project should return that particular area to equilibrium.
 

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