Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[dminches]

TAS Question

Here is the scenario. I browse my music via Album Artists. I pick an artist and then pick an album. If I go to the Playing or Queue screens and then return to the Browse screen it doesn’t go back to where I was (within the artist) but instead brings me to the default screen.

Is this the intended behavior and what everyone else sees or is there a way for TAS to remember where I was and not make me re-select that artist again?

 

[seatrope]

Agreed, I have been bothered by this too. Seems like if you back out immediately you do get back to within the artist or search results, but if you wait a while TAS seems to "forget" where you were and go back to default home page. Would be nice if it remembered where you were.

 

[jbrrp1]

Agreed, I have been bothered by this too. Seems like if you back out immediately you do get back to within the artist or search results, but if you wait a while TAS seems to "forget" where you were and go back to default home page. Would be nice if it remembered where you were.

+1 and "Amen!" on this feature shortcoming!

 

[JanneW]

I would like to propose that Taiko Audio should spend their time and money on hardware design instead of reinventing the wheel once again. Let someone better qualified do the software design. Or why not let TAS be a Roon plug-in, the same way as HQPlayer.

As it is now, I have never seen a media player software as user unfriendly as TAS. There have been many attempts to build such a software by several companies over the years, but only a handful have succeded, e.g. Aurender, Lumin and Roon.

So please, do something else instead.

 

[ctydwn]

With all due respect, you may not have followed these last 397 pages. Not only have there been unequivocal gains in SQ resulting from TAS compared to Roon, many of us have full trust in Emile and his team to tweak as needed to further its potential.

I would guess that most TAS users are willing to navigate a few feature shortcoming in this beta version while enjoying the clear superior sound quality. The minor suggestions I would have are minuscule in the context of overall enjoyment. Since TAS was downloaded here, I haven’t had a desire to listen through any other platform in close to a year. And as we know Taiko continues to improve hardware as well, including the highly anticipated switch. I can only imagine that is the tip of the iceberg too.

 

[JanneW]

I agree that the sound quality with TAS is superior to Roon, but still, every time I decide to use TAS, I get frustrated. Sometimes, TAS creates a total mess of certain recordings and I do not have time to sort out all these anomalities.

Look for example at what WADAX is doing: They have created a true state of the art server (Atlatis Reference Server) - from scratch and although they have the means, they stick with Roon.

And it sounds just amazing....

 

[dminches]

I agree that the sound quality with TAS is superior to Roon, but still, every time I decide to use TAS, I get frustrated. Sometimes, TAS creates a total mess of certain recordings and I do not have time to sort out all these anomalities.

TAS is still in beta. They could have waited a year until all the features were programmed and finished but they decided to release the software early since it sounds better than Roon. You have the option of using Roon and ignoring TAS. I am not sure what the issue is here.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

Not sure how Emile would characterize my early comments on TAS, but *I think* I was critical of some aspects of TAS usability, in particular, around search. That was coming from the Aurender Conductor app, which I quite liked.

Folks here reminded me it's still beta software. I wouldn't say I found that comforting, but that is the factual reference point.

I wanted NO part of Roon. Still do not, so TAS it is, because it sounds delicious, as you know.

FWIW: usability *improved* as my familiarity with the app improved, ergo my frustration level dropped.

To speak quite frankly, I had pockets of frustration that created buyer's remorse on a couple of occasions. Ed was helpful talking me off the ledge a couple of times with TAS and that dopey SRC box.

They have also made updates to the user manual, but that is an on-going effort. And that's the software biz. Hang in there, if you can...

 

[Taiko Audio]

Dear TAS BETA user group. A lot of time has passed since we launched the TAS BETA program and it appears a refresher of its objectives is in order. The current BETA version of TAS only exists for Sound Quality evaluation purposes. The frontend which you are using right now navigate and select your music is called Logitech Media Server, Logitech Media Server - Wikipedia. Logitech Media Server has web browser based remote control functionality which we have wrapped into an app framework which allows you to switch between Roon and Logitech Media Server. Logitech Media Server normally plays files to a player called Squeezelite. Although this is a lightweight solution, on the Extreme, it currently sounds inferior to Roon. We have developed bridges which act like sqeeuzelite on the input side, and stream to our own developed player, named "Extreme Direct Player", or HQPlayer. Logitech Media Server is open source, you are allowed to use it as long as you give something back to the community. Which is why we will share our bridge code with the world when we are finished with it so Logitech Media Server can be used as a frontend to HQPlayer or other 3rd party players.

I will repost the diagram we published a while ago for those who missed it in this by now humongous thread:





All the green pieces are our own code, the red, although it looks more like orange pieces are 3rd party code.

Now, and this is important, we are not going to spend time rewriting parts of Logitech Media Server. The interface you are using right now (Logitech Media Server) is not going to be part of TAS when it comes out of BETA. You are only using Logitech Media Server right now to have a means to route downloaded files, Tidal and Qobuz streams to our Extreme Direct Player and subsequently to our USB driver and firmware for Sound Quality evaluation purposes.

The current progress is slower then we would have liked, the virus has had and is still impacting progress, we have perhaps accepted too many participants in the BETA program (around 200 now), which results in quite excessive support demands, me and Edward spend at least 75% of our time on TAS support (mainly the Logitech part), some participants require no help at all, others need almost daily support, although this significantly slows down development we do not consider it as time wasted as it has given us a very clear view of what the future interface should look and feel like.

On to where we are now:

-We have the Extreme Direct player which has several unique features of which we are pretty sure do not exist in other players, this mainly determines the Sound Quality bit, all ~200 beta testers are unanimous in that it sounds better then Roon.
-We have the Taiko ASIO/USB driver with some other unique features to which we have added support for around 50 different DACs now, with more being added on an almost weekly basis. This is not only benefits the Extreme Direct Player, it also enhances Roon's Sound Quality.
-We have the bridges but as their only purpose is to interface Logitech Media Server to our player, those will be discarded and "given" to the Logitech community as a thank you for all the hard work put in by all the volunteers maintaining the platform, these also "break" server-player communication, which is why you can't currently pause tracks, nor manipulate the track progress bar.
-We have a new server to replace Logitech Media Server, it's called "XDMS" for Extreme Direct Media Server. This includes a filesystem scanner and metadata builder, and yes it supports foreign character sets. We are currently working on the signalling/bidirectional communication between server and player to not affect Sound Quality. This new server can be fully controlled from a web browser or from an app.
-We are working on integrating the following streaming services: Tidal, Qobuz, Amazon Music, Deezer, Highresaudio, Napster, Soundmachine and a whole range of internet radio stations/services. We are basically looking to integrate any streaming service allowing 3rd party application integration. There are 2 services which don't allow this by policy, being Apple Music and Spotify, those 2 only allow access to their content through their own apps.

As for your complaints about the Logitech interface look and feel, we do not forward those to the Logitech development community as virtually all of them are being posted on the Logitech forums, we solve most support issues/questions by searching those forums ourselves. Although we had Wilson fixing several Logitech related bugs in the first few months of the BETA, we have now pulled him from those duties so he can spend his time on further developing TAS.

Against better judgment I'll share a few screenshots of a functional server / player we're working on now which does not use and 3rd party code. Most time is spend on functionality so the interface is now "simple" but functional:


Album list view:



Album view:



Queue view, and yes this plays gapless:



Browse selection menu:



Single page for settings, in debug mode for our purposes, this will also allow starting Roon etc:



Playing from the queue, gapless and you have pause / track control:

 

[Taiko Audio]

Look for example at what WADAX is doing: They have created a true state of the art server (Atlatis Reference Server) - from scratch and although they have the means, they stick with Roon.

And it sounds just amazing....

The WADAX servers, like any other server running Roon software, are based on a x86 computer (Intel of AMD CPU powered) as that is required to run Roon. These computers run either a Linux or Windows operating system. The Reference server adds an optical interface to interface with their Reference DAC based on a Neutrik OpticalCon interface for "galvanic isolation", much alike the MSB USB Pro - ISL interface, but MSB uses SFP modules and single mode fiber cabling. The often discussed ASIC used in the WADAX Reference DAC is "very cool", a level above a FPGA DAC as used in for example the Chord Dave, but those cannot run Roon software as they are not x86 architecture.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Roon Sound Quality, the vast majority of our customers are running Roon and are completely satisfied with its performance, especially after our software updates, the new driver and the new USB card. Of our BETA Testers, I estimate around 50% are running Roon most of the time. Yes TAS is unanimously considered to sound better. But it is "just another upgrade".

A catch-22 for us audiophiles is once you hear something which sounds better, it's hard to go back. I have run 2 experiments to put things in perspective, and I'm pretty sure most would agree:

1) Roon with the new USB card sounds better then TAS without the new USB card.
2) Roon with an Audioquest Wel Signature Interconnect (EURO 8200) from DAC to PREAMP sounds better then TAS with an Audioquest Wind (EURO 2200) Interconnect.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Can the extreme play .w64 files?
If so, can anyone comment on the sound versus .wav files?

Neither Roon nor TAS supports .w64 files. We could add support in TAS but there will need to be a SQ advantage and I suspect there isn't. It's on our "to test" list though!

 

[Taiko Audio]

I forgot to add we are also discussing adding PGGB based real-time and/or offline up/down/resampling/noise shaping and volume control in TAS with the PGGB author. This can have some pretty distinct advantages with various DACs for various reasons,

 

[Ackcheng]

I forgot to add we are also discussing adding PGGB based real-time and/or offline up/down/resampling/noise shaping and volume control in TAS with the PGGB author. This can have some pretty distinct advantages with various DACs for various reasons,

That will be very nice. I can remove HQ player all together!

 

[wil]

Dear TAS BETA user group. A lot of time has passed since we launched the TAS BETA program and it appears a refresher of its objectives is in order. The current BETA version of TAS only exists for Sound Quality evaluation purposes. The frontend which you are using right now navigate and select your music is called Logitech Media Server, Logitech Media Server - Wikipedia. Logitech Media Server has web browser based remote control functionality which we have wrapped into an app framework which allows you to switch between Roon and Logitech Media Server. Logitech Media Server normally plays files to a player called Squeezelite. Although this is a lightweight solution, on the Extreme, it currently sounds inferior to Roon. We have developed bridges which act like sqeeuzelite on the input side, and stream to our own developed player, named "Extreme Direct Player", or HQPlayer. Logitech Media Server is open source, you are allowed to use it as long as you give something back to the community. Which is why we will share our bridge code with the world when we are finished with it so Logitech Media Server can be used as a frontend to HQPlayer or other 3rd party players.

I will repost the diagram we published a while ago for those who missed it in this by now humongous thread:

View attachment 81054



All the green pieces are our own code, the red, although it looks more like orange pieces are 3rd party code.

Now, and this is important, we are not going to spend time rewriting parts of Logitech Media Server. The interface you are using right now (Logitech Media Server) is not going to be part of TAS when it comes out of BETA. You are only using Logitech Media Server right now to have a means to route downloaded files, Tidal and Qobuz streams to our Extreme Direct Player and subsequently to our USB driver and firmware for Sound Quality evaluation purposes.

The current progress is slower then we would have liked, the virus has had and is still impacting progress, we have perhaps accepted too many participants in the BETA program (around 200 now), which results in quite excessive support demands, me and Edward spend at least 75% of our time on TAS support (mainly the Logitech part), some participants require no help at all, others need almost daily support, although this significantly slows down development we do not consider it as time wasted as it has given us a very clear view of what the future interface should look and feel like.

On to where we are now:

-We have the Extreme Direct player which has several unique features of which we are pretty sure do not exist in other players, this mainly determines the Sound Quality bit, all ~200 beta testers are unanimous in that it sounds better then Roon.
-We have the Taiko ASIO/USB driver with some other unique features to which we have added support for around 50 different DACs now, with more being added on an almost weekly basis. This is not only benefits the Extreme Direct Player, it also enhances Roon's Sound Quality.
-We have the bridges but as their only purpose is to interface Logitech Media Server to our player, those will be discarded and "given" to the Logitech community as a thank you for all the hard work put in by all the volunteers maintaining the platform, these also "break" server-player communication, which is why you can't currently pause tracks, nor manipulate the track progress bar.
-We have a new server to replace Logitech Media Server, it's called "XDMS" for Extreme Direct Media Server. This includes a filesystem scanner and metadata builder, and yes it supports foreign character sets. We are currently working on the signalling/bidirectional communication between server and player to not affect Sound Quality. This new server can be fully controlled from a web browser or from an app.
-We are working on integrating the following streaming services: Tidal, Qobuz, Amazon Music, Deezer, Highresaudio, Napster, Soundmachine and a whole range of internet radio stations/services. We are basically looking to integrate any streaming service allowing 3rd party application integration. There are 2 services which don't allow this by policy, being Apple Music and Spotify, those 2 only allow access to their content through their own apps.

As for your complaints about the Logitech interface look and feel, we do not forward those to the Logitech development community as virtually all of them are being posted on the Logitech forums, we solve most support issues/questions by searching those forums ourselves. Although we had Wilson fixing several Logitech related bugs in the first few months of the BETA, we have now pulled him from those duties so he can spend his time on further developing TAS.

Against better judgment I'll share a few screenshots of a functional server / player we're working on now which does not use and 3rd party code. Most time is spend on functionality so the interface is now "simple" but functional:


Album list view:

View attachment 81057

Album view:

View attachment 81058

Queue view, and yes this plays gapless:

View attachment 81059

Browse selection menu:

View attachment 81055

Single page for settings, in debug mode for our purposes, this will also allow starting Roon etc:

View attachment 81056

Playing from the queue, gapless and you have pause / track control:

View attachment 81060

Once I figured out a simple path with TAS, it's all I need now or ever. Just pick out an album and play -- whether from my already saved collection or from a Qobuz search. I like Roon, but don't need all the bells and whistles. TAS, right now, is perfect. In fact, I almost dread having to learn my way around the new TAS, but no doubt it will be great.

It's really too bad though, that Emile and co. have to spend so much on helping the beta users rather than forging ahead on other fronts.

 

[dminches]

It's really too bad though, that Emile and co. have to spend so much on helping the beta users rather than forging ahead on other fronts.

I agree. I suggested we have an online user group to help each other so the Taiko team can build new stuff.

 

[Taiko Audio]

That will be very nice. I can remove HQ player all together!

Indeed, although we will most likely retain the option to stream to HQPlayer.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Once I figured out a simple path with TAS, it's all I need now or ever. Just pick out an album and play -- whether from my already saved collection or from a Qobuz search. I like Roon, but don't need all the bells and whistles. TAS, right now, is perfect. In fact, I almost dread having to learn my way around the new TAS, but no doubt it will be great.

It's really too bad though, that Emile and co. have to spend so much on helping the beta users rather than forging ahead on other fronts.

We have an absolute priority in having an easy to use intuitive interface. The version of which I posted screenshots above only has 2 “buttons”, navigation (browse by artist or album etc) and player/server options. It is lightning fast btw, instant command execution and fast browsing.

 

[Taiko Audio]

I agree. I suggested we have an online user group to help each other so the Taiko team can build new stuff.

We have collected an invaluable amount of data from all that support though!

 

[EuroDriver]

We have an absolute priority in having an easy to use intuitive interface. The version of which I posted screenshots above only has 2 “buttons”, navigation (browse by artist or album etc) and player/server options. It is lightning fast btw, instant command execution and fast browsing.

This is the advantage of reinventing the wheel. LMS was coded with a SOTA programming environment of 15 years ago. What Wilson is building today is utilizing current day hi performance code environments, there is no comparison performance wise. It does however need custom signaling, but that's how relentless the Taiko sound quality mantra and mission is

 

[Kingsrule]

Emile

Thank you for this XDMS update. Hopefully it will quell some of the anxiousness many of the beta users have while waiting for XDMS.....