Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[austinpop]

but for reasons that are mysterious to me, copper now sounds uniformly better than "disconnecting" from the network

I am also hearing this Roy, so while this goes contrary to our previous understanding, I have to accept what my ears are telling me.

It will be good to get a new set of best practices. Amazon will soon run out of 100m spools of UTP Ethernet cable!

 

[cmarin]

I have reread my post and I see that something is missing.
Where it says
“While I could accept that after the update Roon's sound (which has improved a lot) might be superior to TAS”
it should say
“While I could accept that after the update Roon's sound (which has improved a lot) might be superior to TAS, according to the usual audiophile parameters”

Interesting comments nonesup.

When I first got the OS/USB upgrade, I used TAS (with USB3) because I hadn’t used Roon in a long time.

As I told Emile at the time, I don’t know if it’s because I was tired or what else, but listening to “The Astounding Eyes of Rita: Waking State” with TAS/USB3 literally brought tears to my eyes. Just an amazing level of engagement.

I then set up Roon, which took a while, and I ended up with USB1as the better option. But I’ll have to go back and try TAS again later this week to see how the emotional engagement stacks up.

P.S. I’m listening to Bach concerto for violin and strings performed by Joshua Bell and I can’t imagine TAS improving on what I’m hearing. But we shall see.

 

[wil]

When I first received my Extreme in early 2020, it came standard with a Startech PCIe fiber card and Emile's default recommendation at that time was to go with fiber using Startech SFPs and so not really "tweaking" to start with fiber back then.

When the disastrous Roon update was released in 2020, it was most disastrous for those of us who were on fiber and according to Emile, it was because of the higher power draw of fiber and so I switched to copper. It was on copper that I did most of my network tweaking and it drove me nuts that I could hear tremendous differences amongst different copper Ethernet cables, switches, routers, and modems. How was anyone to know what true "neutral" sounded like? I discovered what I felt was true "neutral" when I disconnected the Ethernet cable from my Extreme and so that became my new reference point. When TAS was released, because it was not network chatty like Roon, the network was no longer the noise jungle it once was and so disconnecting from the network no longer made much difference but because I could still here differences between fiber and copper, in my mind, the network was still not completely transparent and so I continued to disconnect.

With the new update, it's become clear that we have entered a new era with our Extremes and "best practices" have changed. Not only does copper sound uniformly better than fiber (due to higher packet noise according to Emile) but for reasons that are mysterious to me, copper now sounds uniformly better than "disconnecting" from the network and so perhaps it would be helpful, with Emile's assistance, to discuss what we currently know about "best practices." Emile, please correct me if I have misunderstood anything.

1. Avoid fiber
2. Avoid disconnecting from the network
3. Avoid tweaking network settings (i.e. no static IP)
4. Ethernet port 1 potentially sounds slightly better than port 2
5. Cheap, long CAT5 unshielded UTP cable is what sounds best. UTP data pairs are transformer decoupled twice and is preferable to STP. Unshielded sounds better than even a floating shield. Longer sounds better than shorter. I recall Emile is using 45 meters of cheap CAT5 unshielded UTP cabling to his Extreme and so maybe something like the following sounds better than any audiophile cabling?

https://www.amazon.com/150FT-Cat5e-Ethernet-Patch-Cable/dp/B072KLZN7R

Does this new best practice in any way negate the use of the audiophile switch?

And, I just now see that my long direct burial ethernet is cat 7 STP (shielded).

For replacement, I found Cat 6 UTP (un-sheilded) 150' for $29 Amazon.

I assume CAT 6 is good? And that there are no audiophile issues with a direct burial line with it's copper clad aluminum sheathing (not shielding)?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08P2SVTW7/ref=ppx_od_dt_b_asin_title_s00?ie=UTF8&th=1

 

[howiebrou]

Good morning all

I hope everyone is bright eyed and bushy tailed since you all received the new update. Frankly I haven't been able to sleep as it is almost as if I am listening to a completely new sound system. and I didn't get out of my seat until 0300 this morning.I lost complete track of time.

You mean you fell asleep?

 

[heebrog]

For both.

Hi Emile.

If one was using fibre into Extreme previously is there anything that needs to be "switched off" in the Network settings on Extreme or just unplug the SFP transceiver from the port?

 

[nonesup]

Interesting comments nonesup.

When I first got the OS/USB upgrade, I used TAS (with USB3) because I hadn’t used Roon in a long time.

As I told Emile at the time, I don’t know if it’s because I was tired or what else, but listening to “The Astounding Eyes of Rita: Waking State” with TAS/USB3 literally brought tears to my eyes. Just an amazing level of engagement.

I then set up Roon, which took a while, and I ended up with USB1as the better option. But I’ll have to go back and try TAS again later this week to see how the emotional engagement stacks up.

P.S. I’m listening to Bach concerto for violin and strings performed by Joshua Bell and I can’t imagine TAS improving on what I’m hearing. But we shall see.

Thank you, your post has helped me to discover Joshua Bell's version of J.S Bach Violin Concertos. I did not know her and it has been a discovery. Now I'll have to compare it to what was my favorite version: Trevor Pinnock / Simon Standage. How hard is the life of the audiophile………….

 

[Taiko Audio]

Emile, with the AC Kassandra, do you recommend USB4 in both Roon and TAS?

Yes, in fact for TAS:

DACS listed as USB3 and USB4 for Roon, use USB4 for TAS
DACS listed as USB2 for Roon, use USB2 for TAS
DACS listed as USB1 for Roon, not 100% sure but expect either USB2 or USB4, but possibly USB1 aswell

 

[Taiko Audio]

1. Avoid fiber
2. Avoid disconnecting from the network
3. Avoid tweaking network settings (i.e. no static IP)
4. Ethernet port 1 potentially sounds slightly better than port 2
5. Cheap, long CAT5 unshielded UTP cable is what sounds best. UTP data pairs are transformer decoupled twice and is preferable to STP. Unshielded sounds better than even a floating shield. Longer sounds better than shorter. I recall Emile is using 45 meters of cheap CAT5 unshielded UTP cabling to his Extreme and so maybe something like the following sounds better than any audiophile cabling?

https://www.amazon.com/150FT-Cat5e-Ethernet-Patch-Cable/dp/B072KLZN7R

1. Yes, though running Fiber to a Media converter and subsequently copper to the Extreme is significantly less harmful then directly into the Extreme.
2. Yes.
3. Yes, strongly recommend against changing any network setting, or any other setting except loading the matching USB profile, I also noticed a lot of people ihave installed 3rd party software on the Extreme, that WILL degrade sound quality.
4. Yes but it's almost negliable , like below 1%
5. Well, we can guarantee good performance with standard unshielded CAT5/CAT6 cable, you may still prefer your audiophile "flavoured" cable, however we do strongly recommend evaluating over a prolonged period using a range of test tracks and watch for signs of fatigue / loss of interest in listening to music over time, try to focus on how listening to music makes you feel and pick a relaxed feel over initial excitement with fatigue over prolonged music listening sessions. I would definitely recommend against investing into network tweaks, as we are moving towards total immunity, and as you all have noticed we are making good progress.

I should add some context to the 100m UTP spool remark, from memory 1 meter of UTP cable adds about 5ns of delay (latency), so you can increase your network latency by using longer UTP cables. Note I'm not advising to actually do this.

In fact my advice is to let it go, stop worrying about it, stop tweaking your network, use a standard functional setup, your mandatory router, a single decent switch (the 5% or so of people who were not "over the moon" with this update report that removing their excess in audiophile switches and cables, fiber etc. remedied the situation) and enjoy the music.

 

[Armsan]

Are you using USB3 with Roon or do you not use Roon? I haven’t yet compared USB3 V USB4 with my MSB DAC…

I don’t use Roon. Only TAS, that fulfills my entire needs. I started with USB3 and it as better than before of the OS upgrade. But then, USB4 was a giant step up, in my system, of course.

 

[cmarin]

This is absolutely the BEST overall audio advice I’ve ever come across:

1. “we [Taiko Team] do strongly recommend evaluating over a prolonged period using a range of test tracks and watch for signs of fatigue / loss of interest in listening to music over time, try to focus on how listening to music makes you feel and pick a relaxed feel over initial excitement with fatigue over prolonged music listening sessions.”

2. “In fact my [Emile Bok] advice is to let it go, stop worrying about it, stop tweaking… and enjoy the music.”

I would only add:

3. It’s going to be ok.

 

[EuroDriver]

With the great sonic results we are getting from the OS upgrade and new USB Drivers, we have decide that it makes sense to close the TAS software Beta program for new installations.

The TAS Beta install process does take time, and there is a bit of a User learning curve with the TAS App. Not doing new TAS Beta installs allows us to devote our time and attention to XDMS.

We have now brought in additional coder resources for the porting of XDMS 1.0 to 2.0

We are pretty confident that Roon will give consistent and stable excellent sound quality over the coming months which allows us the time to push the digital sonic envelope on XDMS 2.0

 

[onlychild]

1. Yes, though running Fiber to a Media converter and subsequently copper to the Extreme is significantly less harmful then directly into the Extreme.
2. Yes.
3. Yes, strongly recommend against changing any network setting, or any other setting except loading the matching USB profile, I also noticed a lot of people ihave installed 3rd party software on the Extreme, that WILL degrade sound quality.
4. Yes but it's almost negliable , like below 1%
5. Well, we can guarantee good performance with standard unshielded CAT5/CAT6 cable, you may still prefer your audiophile "flavoured" cable, however we do strongly recommend evaluating over a prolonged period using a range of test tracks and watch for signs of fatigue / loss of interest in listening to music over time, try to focus on how listening to music makes you feel and pick a relaxed feel over initial excitement with fatigue over prolonged music listening sessions. I would definitely recommend against investing into network tweaks, as we are moving towards total immunity, and as you all have noticed we are making good progress.

I should add some context to the 100m UTP spool remark, from memory 1 meter of UTP cable adds about 5ns of delay (latency), so you can increase your network latency by using longer UTP cables. Note I'm not advising to actually do this.

In fact my advice is to let it go, stop worrying about it, stop tweaking your network, use a standard functional setup, your mandatory router, a single decent switch (the 5% or so of people who were not "over the moon" with this update report that removing their excess in audiophile switches and cables, fiber etc. remedied the situation) and enjoy the music.

I was one of the 5% that was not over the moon with this update. Coming from TAS with the network shut off, I was in a very good place as far as HF noise was concerned. That was the best my setup had sounded.

After the OS update, I tried Roon but quickly got fatigued from HF noise. Maybe within an hour. Then I removed the direct fiber to extreme connection and did fiber to converter to copper to Extreme and the HF noise improved yet again. Now I could go several hours without getting fatigued, but I was still getting fatigued. I could hear HF noise and it was bothersome, especially when it was completely gone with TAS and no network. I was planning to just consider the update bigger for some users because they were coming from an unoptimized network and not as big for me because I was coming from no network.

I even emailed Emile asking if we would be able to turn off the network with XDMS. He replied with “most likely not, try copper” and a wink emoji, and so I kind of sulked the rest of the day in anticipation of having to go down the rabbit hole of network tweaks. Not again!

I was talking to someone else on this forum and he mentioned to get rid of my fiber completely and to just use copper on Lan 1. I was using Lan 2 because it was just easier to reach and actually had forgotten we had two lan ports. Also to note, Lan 2 was labeled as “Tweaked Network” on my Extreme settings.

I grabbed a cheap amazon 30 foot ethernet cord, because it was all I had that could reach from the router to the Extreme, plugged into lan 1 and started listening and bam, within the first 10 seconds I was over the moon. This update is no joke. I listened all night, no fatigue, no HF noise, no sense of hardening, and all this from Roon and a sloppy network setup, but it was not just the HF noise that was gone, the whole sound had changed, for the better.

I now see what people are saying about this being one of the biggest improvements they have heard and how the sound completely fills up their room. The same thing is happening with my headphones. There is so much space and air I’m hearing in each and every recording. A beautiful bloomy sound with tons of separation and tons of detail on micro and macro levels and absolutely ZERO fatigue or HF noise that I can hear. I can completely picture the room/venue now. Separation is amazing. It honestly doesn’t even sound like the same system.

I’m waking up today still trying to wrap my head around what I heard in last nights (to early morning) listening session.

Not sure if this applies to everyone but what made the difference for me was

1. Removing all fiber
2. Cheap 30 foot ethernet cord straight from router
3. Using Lan 1 (not sure if it matters that it was the “non-tweaked” ethernet)

For those asking about the “tweaked vs non-tweaked” —> this is from the early days of the Extreme where Emile and team were making changes to the Lan ports. They had modified some settings on one of the lan ports and labeled it “tweaked Ethernet”

Hats off to Emile and Team for this monumental improvement. I can’t wait to start listening again today.

 

[Taiko Audio]

There is no longer a difference between LAN1 and LAN2, apart from LAN1 being slightly "directer", you'd probably be challenged to hear a difference between the 2.

 

[Legolas]

Many of you guys using an audiophile switch? I got the Paul Pang Quad switch and it is really good.
It goes between the LAN cable form your router to your server, but very close to you server, less than 1 meter.

 

[Ackcheng]

We

There is no longer a difference between LAN1 and LAN2, apart from LAN1 being slightly "directer", you'd probably be challenged to hear a difference between the 2.

is this the reason why it also works so well with Revanna? After all, AOIP is all about network

 

[Taiko Audio]

We

is this the reason why it also works so well with Revanna? After all, AOIP is all about network

Definitely part of it.

 

[steve williams]

1. Yes, though running Fiber to a Media converter and subsequently copper to the Extreme is significantly less harmful then directly into the Extreme.
2. Yes.
3. Yes, strongly recommend against changing any network setting, or any other setting except loading the matching USB profile, I also noticed a lot of people ihave installed 3rd party software on the Extreme, that WILL degrade sound quality.
4. Yes but it's almost negliable , like below 1%
5. Well, we can guarantee good performance with standard unshielded CAT5/CAT6 cable, you may still prefer your audiophile "flavoured" cable, however we do strongly recommend evaluating over a prolonged period using a range of test tracks and watch for signs of fatigue / loss of interest in listening to music over time, try to focus on how listening to music makes you feel and pick a relaxed feel over initial excitement with fatigue over prolonged music listening sessions. I would definitely recommend against investing into network tweaks, as we are moving towards total immunity, and as you all have noticed we are making good progress.

I should add some context to the 100m UTP spool remark, from memory 1 meter of UTP cable adds about 5ns of delay (latency), so you can increase your network latency by using longer UTP cables. Note I'm not advising to actually do this.

In fact my advice is to let it go, stop worrying about it, stop tweaking your network, use a standard functional setup, your mandatory router, a single decent switch (the 5% or so of people who were not "over the moon" with this update report that removing their excess in audiophile switches and cables, fiber etc. remedied the situation) and enjoy the music.

Best advice.....when Emile talks, the community should listen. Truly this is a case where less is more. Time for people to shed all of their tweaks and stop trying to second guess Emile by adding things that not only serve no purpose but in reality have a negative effect on their overall sound quality. Time for people to emerge from the rabbit hole. If the new OS update along with Emile's recommendations hasn't convinced you yet that less is more.........I have followed Emile's recommendations since day one and have never deviated from any of his recommendations and with all of the updates it just seems so obvious...........

I would definitely recommend against investing into network tweaks, as we are moving towards total immunity, and as you all have noticed we are making good progress.

Everyone should just sit back and enjoy the ride. Air Taiko and Captain Emile at the helm giving specific instructions should be the flight we all take to reach the Nirvana we all seek

 

[hols]

Updated DAC profile list:



-Analog Domain DAC1 - USB2 - Roon 32-bit

-Anthem STR - USB3 - Roon 24-bit

-APL DSD-MR - USB4 - Roon 32-bit

-APL DSD-SR - USB4 - Roon 32-bit

-Aries Cerat Helene - USB4 - Roon 32-bit

-Aries Cerat Kassandra - USB4 - Roon 32-bit

-Aqua Formula xHD V2.0 - USB4 - Roon 32-bit

-Aqua La Scala - USB3 - Roon 24-bit

-Ayre QX-5 with USB2 upgrade - USB4 - Roon 32-bit

-B&O Beolab 50 - USB1 or USB3 - Roon 32-bit

-Boulder 2120

-Bricasti MDxx - USB4 - Roon 32-bit

-Brinkmann Nyquist - USB3 - Roon 24-bit

-CH Precision - USB3 - Roon 24-bit

-DCS Bartok - USB3 - Roon 24-bit

-DCS Rossini - USB3 - Roon 24-bit

-DCS Rossini Player - USB3 - Roon 24-bit

-DCS Vivaldi - USB3 - Roon 24-bit

-DCS Vivaldi Up-sampler - USB3 - Roon 24-bit

-DCS Vivaldi One - USB3 - Roon 24-bit

-Denafrips Gaia

-Denafrips Terminator Plus

-Devialet Expert Pro

-EMM Labs DA2 - USB3 - Roon 24-bit

-EMM Labs DAC2V2 - USB3 - Roon 24-bit

-EMM Labs DAC2X - USB3 - Roon 24-bit

-Esoteric Grandioso D1X (PCM only)

-Esoteric K-01X (PCM only)

-Esoteric K-01XD (PCM only)

-Esoteric K-03 (PCM only)

-Exogal Comet - USB3 - Roon 24-bit

-Goldmund Mimesis 20H Nextgen - USB3 - Roon 24-bit

-Gustard X26 Pro - USB4 - Roon 32-bit

-Holo Audio May - USBx - Roon 24-bit

-Ideon Absolute

-iFi Pro iDSD

-Lampizator - USB4 - Roon 32-bit

-LH Davinci MKII - USB4 - Roon 32-bit

-LH Virtuoso - USB4 - Roon 32-bit

-Luxman D10X - USB1 or USB3 - Roon 24-bit

-Matrix Audio X-SPDIF 2 - USB1 or USB3 - Roon 24 bit

-Meitner MA-3 - USB3 - Roon 24-bit

-Meitner XDS1 V3 - USB3 - Roon 24-bit

-MSB Pro USB - USB3 - Roon 24-bit

-MSB V / Quad - USB3 - Roon 24-bit

-Mutec MC-3+ - USB3 - Roon 24-bit

-Nagra HD-X - USB2 - Roon 32-bit

-Nagra Tube Dac - USB2 - Roon 32-bit

-Pilium Elektra - USB3 - Roon 24-bit

-Resolution Audio Cantata 3.0

-Sennheiser HE-1 - USB2 - Roon 32-bit

-Singxer SU-6 - USB3 - Roon 24-bit

-SoTM dx-usbHD - USB1 or USB3 - Roon 24-bit

-Soulution 330 - USB3 - Roon 24-bit

-Soulution 760 - USB3 - Roon 24-bit

-T+A MP 2500R - USB4 - Roon 32-bit

-T+A SD(V)3100 - USB4 - Roon 32-bit

-Thrax Maximinus - USB4 - Roon 32-bit

-Topping NX4DSD - USB4 - Roon 32-bit

-Totaldac - USB1 - Roon 24-bit

-Trinity 1st gen model - USB1 or USB3 - Roon 24-bit

-Trinity Reference

-Vinnie Rossi L2 - USB4 - Roon 32-bit

-Vitus - USB4 - Roon 32-bit

-Wadax Reference - USB3 - Roon 24-bit

-Weiss DAC-501

-Ypsilon 1000 - USB4 - Roon 32-bit

Big thanks to Emile updating the OS for me late last night. I listened to it tonight and yes there is a big SQ improvement. After updating the Roon and familiarizing I have listened for an hour or so and it is better than the HQplayer/NAA I was using before. I am using the Holo Audio May and I am still experimenting with the 4 USB profiles. USB 3 comes out better than the others in my system. I checked the DAC list and I just wonder anything special about USBx in the line of Holo Audio May? I also have the Denafrips Terminator Plus and any suggestion which USB profile will work best for it? Thanks.

 

[Cyrus]

A few questions:

My application is a short run... 3 meters in length.

1. For those using unshielded LAN cables, have you found differences between various unshielded cables?

2. Which unshielded LAN cable do you prefer and recommend?

3. Do you also recommend unshielded connectors?

Thank you.

 

[aLLeARS]

I was one of the 5% that was not over the moon with this update. Coming from TAS with the network shut off, I was in a very good place as far as HF noise was concerned. That was the best my setup had sounded.

After the OS update, I tried Roon but quickly got fatigued from HF noise. Maybe within an hour. Then I removed the direct fiber to extreme connection and did fiber to converter to copper to Extreme and the HF noise improved yet again. Now I could go several hours without getting fatigued, but I was still getting fatigued. I could hear HF noise and it was bothersome, especially when it was completely gone with TAS and no network. I was planning to just consider the update bigger for some users because they were coming from an unoptimized network and not as big for me because I was coming from no network.

I even emailed Emile asking if we would be able to turn off the network with XDMS. He replied with “most likely not, try copper” and a wink emoji, and so I kind of sulked the rest of the day in anticipation of having to go down the rabbit hole of network tweaks. Not again!

I was talking to someone else on this forum and he mentioned to get rid of my fiber completely and to just use copper on Lan 1. I was using Lan 2 because it was just easier to reach and actually had forgotten we had two lan ports. Also to note, Lan 2 was labeled as “Tweaked Network” on my Extreme settings.

I grabbed a cheap amazon 30 foot ethernet cord, because it was all I had that could reach from the router to the Extreme, plugged into lan 1 and started listening and bam, within the first 10 seconds I was over the moon. This update is no joke. I listened all night, no fatigue, no HF noise, no sense of hardening, and all this from Roon and a sloppy network setup, but it was not just the HF noise that was gone, the whole sound had changed, for the better.

I now see what people are saying about this being one of the biggest improvements they have heard and how the sound completely fills up their room. The same thing is happening with my headphones. There is so much space and air I’m hearing in each and every recording. A beautiful bloomy sound with tons of separation and tons of detail on micro and macro levels and absolutely ZERO fatigue or HF noise that I can hear. I can completely picture the room/venue now. Separation is amazing. It honestly doesn’t even sound like the same system.

I’m waking up today still trying to wrap my head around what I heard in last nights (to early morning) listening session.

Not sure if this applies to everyone but what made the difference for me was

1. Removing all fiber
2. Cheap 30 foot ethernet cord straight from router
3. Using Lan 1 (not sure if it matters that it was the “non-tweaked” ethernet)

For those asking about the “tweaked vs non-tweaked” —> this is from the early days of the Extreme where Emile and team were making changes to the Lan ports. They had modified some settings on one of the lan ports and labeled it “tweaked Ethernet”

Hats off to Emile and Team for this monumental improvement. I can’t wait to start listening again today.

Thanks for posting this. You motivated me to bypass my switches and fiber. I'm now going directly from router to Extreme with 20' Cat6 UTP.

When I first heard the OS and USB driver update the sound was not right. It sounded "scooped out" lifeless and had an electronic edge in the midrange and high frequencies. I knew something must not be right, but what was it?
After reading Emile's recent posts and then seeing yours I bypassed the fiber run from router to switch one, short copper to second switch and 20' copper to Extreme. Going instead directly from router to Extreme with 20' UTP copper.
Now I hear the updates! They make a huge positive improvement over my previous setup.
Anyone in the market for some "audiophile" switches?
Go Taiko!!!