Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[Kawero]

Spdif output also HUGE improvement I can say

 

[marty]

@Blackmorec
@Rhapsody

I fully agree with your comments on network power supplies as a commonly overlooked performance bottleneck. Somewhere in either this monster 400+ page thread (or elsewhere- I can't recall!) I posted a similar comment regarding the use of a LPS for my ISP modem. For many years, Xfinity/Comcast only offered a modem with a built in cheap wall-wart type PS that could not be by-passed or substituted. However, Motorola recently came out with a Comcast-approved modem (MT7711) that allows for a separate LPS. For the past month or so, I've been trying 3 separate LPS's with the 7711. Not surprisingly, they all sound a bit different. Most importantly, the sonic benefit of using a separate LPS is enormous and although you can't beat "free" as Emile's recent transformational OS upgrade, it's a very significant and superb bang for the buck improvement.

Two no-name, high quality, $100 Chinese LPS's performed quite nicely. However, I've settled on using a highly regarded PS from Uptone, the JS-2. It's a dual-output, choke-filtered linear power supply with four user-selectable DC output voltages that is user set from the back panel: 5V, 7V, 9V, or 12V. Guaranteed current capability is 5 amps continuous from either output at any voltage setting, which is a lot of balls for a humble LPS. At $925 direct from Uptone, it's a superb value. This 10 lb. beast is substantial and well-made. For those interested, there appears to be several significant benefits to Uptone's choice of a choke-filtered LPS that are explained in detail on their web site.

The main point, which many have already heeded, is that if your ISP modem does not use a LPS, try to acquire one that does. The difference is easily heard and is quite affordable.

 

[Zeotrope]

Great info! No one at this level should use a switch mode power supply.
I’ve been using Teddy Pardo supplies with great results for years.

 

[dminches]

Great info! No one at this level should use a switch mode power supply.
I’ve been using Teddy Pardo supplies with great results for years.

I believe Emile favors SMPS as long as they switch at a very high frequency, etc etc etc.

I will let @Taiko Audio clarify or negate my statement since I am not 100% sure.

 

[dminches]

The main point, which many have already heeded, is that if your ISP modem does not use a LPS, try to acquire one that does. The difference is easily heard and is quite affordable.

Marty, are you hearing the same difference with both local files and streamed music?

 

[Blackmorec]

You have always been VERY helpful regarding your networking work especially over in the networking thread.

I AGREEE 1000% about the LPS's for switches having a dramatic effect on the SQ. a f Without looking back at who posted when they removed the M12 switch or re-inserted it, I would venture that they did not have the JCAT LPS connected with the M12 switch.

As I noted a few pages back I removed my M12's, but I use the JCAT LPSs with these switches. Two M12s/two LPSs. When I first used the M12 I thought it made a slight positive difference. When I added the LPS to the M12 it made a dramatic difference.

So, when the noted M12 user added the M12 recently and didn't like it, again, my guess is he did not have the M12 LPS connected as well.

I keep saying this but every system is different. Every users' room is different. Everyone's ears and sonic priorities are different.

I listen with a few astute/experienced listeners and we listen to the exact same thing at the exact same time and have totally different impressions and conclusions regarding what we are hearing.

Point being, be careful what you read from one poster and his ears/room/system regarding his conclusions most likely they don't pertain to what you are experiencing in your environment. Know what you hear and what you like, it's all that matters.

Sure I understand there are generalities, like the recent OS upgrade or the Taiko usb card/drivers etc, but the networking stuff imho can be tilted one way or another depending on a user's overall environment and full equation.

Hi Rhapsody,
I very much liked the above reply and found your thoughts important to digest. Basically to judge any hi-fi you need an anchor point…a “compared to what” point. And generally that comes from the system we listen to at home. And even if the system you are judging is truly great, but far away in character from your anchor point, you may not immediately gravitate towards it.

Also the music is down to whats on the recording but the presentation of the music is very much down to the equipment that’s used to call, process and play it on. You are very much correct in saying that the networking depends on the user’s overall environment and full equation. I would just add that the network is a great tool to improve the quality of sound
in audio systems. The HOW best to go about doing that comes down to individual systems and networks.

Finally I think it’s highly likely you are correct re the M12…….I’m pretty certain the reason I rejected a popular USB device was down to its power supplies, that my system seemed to be slightly allergic to.

 

[marty]

We can offer you a 100% refund of your EVO purchasing price should you wish to upgrade to the Extreme platform.

Jeez, who else does this??? Oh yeah....Lampizator!
Two Incredible companies doing the seemingly impossible and doing it with digital products which comprise the fastest changing area of high end audio.

Someone give those guys a damn prize, puh-leeze!

 

[marty]

Marty, are you hearing the same difference with both local files and streamed music?

David, excellent question and I wondered the same. The answer is both, but I don't understand why. I asked Alex Crespi at Uptone and he replied with a comment that we all know to be true which is...everything matters. It may not be an answer I find fully satisfying but I can't refute the results.

 

[steve williams]

David, excellent question and I wondered the same. The answer is both, but I don't understand why. I asked Alex Crespi at Uptone and he replied with a comment that we all know to be true which is...everything matters. It may not be an answer I find fully satisfying but I can't refute the results.

I use an LPS with my cable modem and the uptick is quite noticeable with both

 

[QuantumWave]

I fully agree with all previous comments, really interesting discussion! I have spent the WE testing with/without a double clocked Buffalo cascade, powered by Farad, and for the first time I am not too sure which one is best (direct Extreme from Ubiquiti Amplifi, or via switch). There are differences, maybe the switch sounds more ‘whole’ , but direct connection is more lively, and edges better formed, whereas the switch has more bloom (=colour). So far I would have been quite confident about which one was better, but with the new SRX-DX usb4 driver, all bets seem to be off, it would be lovely if others could share. Note I have a separate subnet for my extreme.

 

[Kingrex]

Again, I dont own a Taiko server. But I am starting to have glitches with my 4 year old Mojo that runs 24x7. Online tech support has it stable again. My gut just says I have 1 or 2 years before I am forced to replace it. So I have my eyes open.

A huge uptick in streaming for me was getting a separate Asus router and leaving the modem to do what it was designed to do.

I have my modem, router and switch on LPS. All of those LPS are plugged into an isolation transformer. If I end up with a Taiko, I can't see putting wall warts back in and removing my stand alone router as a way to get better sound. But who knows. A major new product utilizing those devices will necessitate revisiting everything attached to it.

[QUOTE="Rhapsody, post: 781172,
Point being, be careful what you read from one poster and his ears/room/system regarding his conclusions most likely they don't pertain to what you are experiencing in your environment. Know what you hear and what you like, it's all that matters.
[/QUOTE]
Great comments Bob.

 

[romaz]

I think Emile's point of directly connecting the Extreme to a router using inexpensive CAT5/6 UTP cabling is to have a starting point of reference as this allows one to then gauge the impact of any intermediary switches and cables. With the OS update resulting in a profoundly lower noise floor and with the Extreme now being virtually immune to network traffic (which is why Roon now sounds so good according to Emile), then the colorings added by switches and cables become all the more evident.

My previous neutral point of reference was to disconnect from the network but as Emile explains it, if you disconnect from the network, Windows then is forever searching for the network and this incessant pinging for something that is no longer there creates its own noise. Previously, this noise was buried in the Extreme's noise floor but with the noise floor now dramatically reduced, this noise is now exposed and is audible. It's the same thing with your router, intermediary switches, and cables, it seems you can now more readily appreciate the contribution or "flavoring" that each component offers. Since every network requires at the very least a router and intermediary cabling, it makes sense that this simplest configuration should now be the Extreme's starting point of reference.

In my case, directly connecting my Extreme to my Ubiquiti EdgeRouter powered by a Paul Hynes SR7 using inexpensive UTP cabling, the results are very good but adding the etherRegen into the mix (also powered by my SR7) very noticeably improves SQ in a way that I like but with the caveat that Emile has shared (using only the eR's "A" ports). Using the eR's "B" port sounds smoother but sleepier. Some may prefer this, I do not. As I bring out my SOtM sNH-10 switch that had been collecting dust, adding this into the mix also sounds better than just directly connecting the Extreme to the router. Remove either of these switches and the presentation sounds less dynamic but also harsher and timbre not as natural. To my ears, I am preferring the overall presentation of eR to the SOtM. The SOtM sounds thinner and has airier treble while the eR adds more body and so again, it comes down to personal taste. When I had the Buffalo/Melco and M12 here, they each added their own flavors to the mix and of course, you could stack these components together to tune for taste but therein lies the problem. What is the formula for success when there are seemingly infinite permutations and we each have different needs/tastes? I would get frequent PMs regarding my network recommendations and it was very hard to know what to say. This was the reason I got out of the network rat race and began disconnecting from the network. "Disconnecting" is what sounded most neutral at the time.

At this point, I could start tinkering with the network again but then you'll have to ask yourself why? As I see it, it would make sense to implement what sounds best to your ears with the gear you already own or at most, invest in a cheap Netgear switch or UTP cabling to get you by but why spend significant resources on your network now when Emile's NIC, switch, and router are due by year's end and will likely make all of these tweaks obsolete? With Emile's track record thus far, who of us would bet against Emile at this point? As Steve has suggested, what makes the most sense is to stay put until May.

 

[Taiko Audio]

I believe Emile favors SMPS as long as they switch at a very high frequency, etc etc etc.

I will let @Taiko Audio clarify or negate my statement since I am not 100% sure.

For higher current DC-DC applications yes, for AC-DC no, and indeed at MHz in stead of KHz switching frequencies.

 

[cat6man]

why spend significant resources on your network now when Emile's NIC, switch, and router are due by year's end and will likely make all of these tweaks obsolete? With Emile's track record thus far, who of us would bet against Emile at this point? As Steve has suggested, what makes the most sense is to stay put until May.

agree. i've notified my crane operator i'll be needing his help to lift my Extreme out of its rack to replace the NIC.
i'm assuming i can lift the router and/or switch without a construction crew.

 

[alwayslearning]

My previous neutral point of reference was to disconnect from the network but as Emile explains it, if you disconnect from the network, Windows then is forever searching for the network and this incessant pinging for something that is no longer there creates its own noise. Previously, this noise was buried in the Extreme's noise floor but with the noise floor now dramatically reduced, this noise is now exposed and is audible. It's the same thing with your router, intermediary switches, and cables, it seems you can now more readily appreciate the contribution or "flavoring" that each component offers. Since every network requires at the very least a router and intermediary cabling, it makes sense that this simplest configuration should now be the Extreme's starting point of reference.

This is the first explanation I've heard that makes sense with regard to why the "no network" option now can sound worse than constantly feeding the Extreme with ethernet. Thanks for sharing that. The new OS update really is a game changer.

And I fully agree with 1) the idea that the simple router plus UTP cabling be used as a starting reference for network experiments; and 2) the idea that it makes little sense to invest a lot of time and money into optimizing your network when Taiko will be coming out with a switch, network card, and router in the relatively near future.

 

[onlychild]

Question for @Taiko, will the planned switch/network card/ router come with their own Taiko LPSs or will that be left up to the user to pick?

 

[vhs]

I’m a non-Extreme user, but love to follow this thread with all the wonderful developments and discoveries. I’m a major Taiko fan…just that I’m travelling an alternate road that Im not yet entirely ready to abandon.

For the past 3.5 years I have been developing a digitally-based system for local and remote streaming.
I discovered fairly early on that reducing RFI and EMI, jitter and phase noise, internal and external vibration that excites resonances and power supply noise and impedance along the entire network really has a major impact on sound quality. I also discovered that to gain maximum SQ benefits, the network components need to have the correct specs based on their position within the chain. The specs should always go from good to better as you progress down the chain. I also learned that components meant to enhance the stream, don’t always work as intended, depending on the environment they‘re in and the quality of the stream they’re treating. I have had several instances where extremely well reviewed components haven’t improved but rather downgraded sound quality. This was true in my case when treating the USB output of my server and with certain modules like ‘switches’ and cables on the input. In my system, I am aiming to deliver the very cleanest and most precise data stream to the server. In my experience, the more you reduce the above listed interferences, the better the stream and resulting SQ gets, but it’s important no to introduce anything that affects (as in reduces) transparency and neutrality. The other major element I have found to impact sound quality is network traffic. The greater the network activity and the busier the network is with superfluous activity (non-audio related), the worse the sound becomes. I have also found that a network requires a well thought through and designed screening strategy that excludes bi-directional radiation and provides zero continuity to carry pesky correlated and non-correlated currents. I use a common star arrangement to a low impedance ground for all cable screens including network.
Finally, the more I have optimized my system in terms of the above interference parameters, the better the sound quality has become, which implies that it produces cleaner, more precise sound waves to interact with my hearing and brain to produce a more precise, pure, dramatic, realistic, natural, emotional, message-laden conscious picture of music being performed by instruments and musicians in real spaces that sonically don‘t resemble my room. The better my system has become, the greater the impact of removing yet more of the interferences i.e the bigger and more impactful the improvements and the more profound disturbances like running-in or warming up after complete cool down have become.
One of my early discoveries was that power supplies used on the network are really responsible for a lot of the characteristics and presentation of the resulting music. Characteristics like purity, detail, pace, rhythm and timing, space, air, emotional involvement will all change for the better when power supplies are improved. My network uses some pretty cheap components….the modem, the router and the wi-fi-ethernet bridge are all consumer grade network products costing a couple of hundred pounds at most. The DC cables I use to deliver DC to these components sometimes cost 4-5x the price of the component itself and the power supply may be 20 times the price and in every case, I would rate the investment as being entirely worthwhile and perfectly in line with or even superior to the price/performance ratio of other hi-fi related upgrades. Running a $100 component with a $3000+ LPS seems to be entirely logical given the degree to which the LPS contributes to the final sound.
So in summary, as the Extreme gets better and better, as SW and interfaces improve, as noise floors are reduced, certain components in your network stream may very well begin to contribute or exert a negative influence. I would just say that such an experience is a result of the component itself or its power supply and should not be generalised into an engineering principal. I don‘t believe and find it counter-intuitive that delivering a cleaner, lower noise, more precise stream will ever sound inferior to a noisier, less precise version….however HOW you clean and resynthesize your stream becomes ever more important as the noise reaching the final detector (your ears) is reduced and your detectors are able to hear deeper into and resolve more of the character of the music. The message I believe is that you need to become more discerning in how your network is structured and the stream refined.

Totally agree, Cheers

 

[Taiko Audio]

Question for @Taiko, will the planned switch/network card/ router come with their own Taiko LPSs or will that be left up to the user to pick?

To be revealed

 

[aLLeARS]

The OS update seems to expose the “qualities” of the ethernet equipment upstream of the Extreme. After removing them, I tried adding back the fiber and switches one at a time to hear what each was doing. The fiber made the largest negative impact. Adding a midrange harshness and loosing dynamic range. The switches didn’t do as much damage to the sound but they definitely color it and again reduce dynamics.

Here with the OS update plugging cat6 directly from the router to the Extreme gives the most dynamic and uncolored sound. However even though it was more hi-fi sounding, it was still not right. It left me not wanting to listen to my system as much.

I started out with the recommended settings for my DAC. Driver 4 with Roon set to 32bit. I lost connection to the music due to an unnatural edge in the midrange as well as the transients being smeared. Much like what I hear in pro-audio when the dither is not set correctly or when noise shaping dither is used.

It wasn’t until I tried the four different drivers that things started to make sense. Here with driver 1 and Roon set to 24bit, maximum buffer size set to yes, I get the best sound so far. It sounds natural again but now I have much better micro and macro dynamics, better separation between instruments and larger imaging then I did before the update.

Point being the upstream equipment, drivers and Roon settings make a huge difference in how the OS update sounds. If you aren’t thrilled with the update try the different drivers and Roon 24 vs 32 bit as well as buffer size.

 

[jelt2359]

When I used the cat6 direct to router as reference, I found that I couldn't stop there. I had to change the rest of my chain including power cords, grounding, tweaks, etc to rebalance the color/detail/tonality ratio to my liking. Once that was done I found to my surprise many of my power cords had been switched to cheaper (less coloured) alternatives, and many (eg. many NCFs) tweaks had to be removed. I now think many of these tweaks (not just network) were inserted because I needed to cover up harshness and is no longer necessary. Compared to before with all my tweaks, the sound is now more balanced, with more inner detail, faster and more nimble, and yet has less leading edged.

This is my new baseline. Not changing one item (network) and leaving everything else untouched. Did anyone go through the same journey?