Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[kennyb123]

I did this experiment about a year ago and preferred both Extreme and Crayon into the Everest. I figured I should repeat the experiment after Taiko's recent OS and USB driver upgrades and reached the same result. FWIW, the Everest is connected to the wall with a Shunyata Sigma v2 XC, the Crayon is connected to the Everest with a Shunyata Alpha v2 NR, and the Extreme is connected to the Everest with a Sablon Prince.

I had the wonderful privilege of getting to hear Jon’s system again yesterday. There were three main differences since I last heard it: 1) SRC-DX with HFC coax, 2) Taiko USB card and 3) Extreme OS upgrade. The improvements I heard literally took my breath away while listening to Diana Krall singing “Departure Bay”. This is one of my favorites. Her voice is really well-recorded and her singing is emotional as she cowrote this song with her hubby and is singing about where she grew up. On Jon’s system yesterday the realism had taken a tremendous leap forward. That was the most realistically I had ever heard a human voice reproduced by an audio system. It was just so pure, with the system itself imposing an insanely low amount of noise on her voice.

That was the most convincing demonstration of what the Extreme can bring to a system. I now know that I have to figure out how I can eventually purchase one.

 

[microstrip]

Emile has been working in the background of my Extreme for a little - Jarret/Haden Last Dance suddenly stopped followed by many clicks ...

I have now just carried a quick listen to some more familiar material - Roon now seems to handle higher resolution microdymamics and cohesion, together with increased vividness. Impressive work of the Taiko team again!

Emile upgraded my Extreme a week ago, I have now a better feeling of the changes. A real improvement, I would just say that music become more beautiful. I was listening to the "Astounding Eyes of Rita" (Anouar Brahem) and the extra detail and definition brought by the upgrade adds richness to the sonority of the oud, plucked notes seem to last longer, the bass clarinet is more enveloping. Fortunately all the detail comes with smoothness, without any enhancing artifacts. Time for the "Astrakan Café"!

 

[nonesup]

Did you listen with Roon or TAS?

 

[Muni]

Because I complained after the update that the sound became a bit too harsh in the highs using Roon even with USB4, Emile recommended to replace my 700€ switch for a simple 20$ D-link switch and use a nonshielded ET cable with it to the Extreme. Lucky as I was I had one spare D-link and bought a Freedom ET unshielded cable from Triode Wire Labs - recommended by Steve here in this thread.
Now the sun is shining with the update and with this setup - the amazing sound Q of this special upgrade finally being enjoyed.
Thank you for revealing now the music that has been hiding before this upgrade - real natural flow, threedimensional, dynamic, easy to perceive the location of instruments and musicians and a lot of new layers of sounds filling the room and my ears directly to the heart.
Great work from Emile and his team and what a great hobby this is!!!
...and still more to come...

 

[wil]

Because I complained after the update that the sound became a bit too harsh in the highs using Roon even with USB4, Emile recommended to replace my 700€ switch for a simple 20$ D-link switch and use a nonshielded ET cable with it to the Extreme. Lucky as I was I had one spare D-link and bought a Freedom ET unshielded cable from Triode Wire Labs - recommended by Steve here in this thread.
Now the sun is shining with the update and with this setup - the amazing sound Q of this special upgrade finally being enjoyed.
Thank you for revealing now the music that has been hiding before this upgrade - real natural flow, threedimensional, dynamic, easy to perceive the location of instruments and musicians and a lot of new layers of sounds filling the room and my ears directly to the heart.
Great work from Emile and his team and what a great hobby this is!!!
...and still more to come...

That's curious that your sq became worse after the upgrade and now great after taking out your switch (which I take it you liked before the upgrade.). Would you share which switch this is?

My system is sounding great after the update. I did experiment with unshielded ethernet bypassing my Melco switch, but found I still prefer my old setup of:
modem/router > copper > Sonore optical > fiber > Melco switch > Sablon copper > Extreme.

 

[Alrainbow]

The perception of better is a flawed conception at times. Over time our brains create new audio memories. this is one reason quick A/B tests can yield false positives.
What he posted makes sense to me . I'm not a big fan of exotic network sws . they can improve stock , but to me first a lps power to sws is first
Then one can try for better when things settle over time . I have tried
Many sws and data cables both stock and exotic . they all matter but you must be carfull to not go down a rabbit hole with too many changes at once.
Taiko is a really smart man and knows we what better is. trouble is do the end users know lol. .

 

[Steve williams]

If everyone just stop thinking that you can do it better than the producer, manufacturer and brains of Taiko Audio. I’m far from a genius when it comes to any of this that you are all discussing.

Ive never used a switch, never used optical fiber and did the 4 things Emile recommended when I bought my Extreme. Prior to that I was 95% analog and had never gotten into streaming other than in a very cursory way. Here’s the advice he gave me 2 1/2 years ago

1. an unshielded copper Cat 5 or Cat 6 Ethernet cable. ( I bought my Ethernet from Triode Wire Lab as it satisfied all of Emile’s recommendations). I’ve never had a problem and they are well priced and excellently made.

2. a reasonably good power cord and USB cable

3. a good means of isolation

4. No switch …………at least for now…….and maybe yes and maybe no
Ive never used a switch and only would if and when Taiko brings a switch to market.

That was 2 1/2 years ago

I followed what Emile recommended and I’ve never had a problem with my network or any issues that were negative

from the very first alpha” version until present TAS and soon to come XDMS I would say to everyone “ sit back and relax and enjoy each update because they all continue to make our SQ better.
it has always been the desire of Emile to control the signal from the time it enters the Extreme until it leaves the Extreme and even perhaps going back as far as the router. .
His team is second to none and his customer service is truly the best of any company of whose equipment I have owned.
So for now it’s time to get out of the rabbit hole. You might just like it. Think XDMS

 

[Muni]

That's curious that your sq became worse after the upgrade and now great after taking out your switch (which I take it you liked before the upgrade.). Would you share which switch this is?

My system is sounding great after the update. I did experiment with unshielded ethernet bypassing my Melco switch, but found I still prefer my old setup of:
modem/router > copper > Sonore optical > fiber > Melco switch > Sablon copper > Extreme.

Hi Wil - I didn't say it became worse in total but in detail in the highs and just a bit - may be I should have said more precisely that the upgrade at the same time was an impovement but I could only appreciate it in total and such a revealing way when the disturbance created by the combination shielded cable, switch to make it more clear.
The switch I used is a prototype from APL - not on the market yet and sounding better than everything else I tried before - but still....that the simple switch and the unshielded ET cable made such a difference to the better says that in combination with the Extreme a lot changes which can blow your mind...
cheers
muni

 

[wil]

So for now it’s time to get out of the rabbit hole. You might just like it. Think XDMS

Call it a rabbit hole if you like, but it's really about finding what works best in your system for your ears at any given time in this evolution. A combination of Fiber and copper is best in my system at present. A switch is useful for making that transition.

I'm looking forward to Emile's upcoming network array. He's the one doing the heavy digging!

 

[aLLeARS]

If everyone just stop thinking that you can do it better than the producer, manufacturer and brains of Taiko Audio. I’m far from a genius when it comes to any of this that you are all discussing.

Ive never used a switch, never used optical fiber and did the 4 things Emile recommended when I bought my Extreme. Prior to that I was 95% analog and had never gotten into streaming other than in a very cursory way. Here’s the advice he gave me 2 1/2 years ago

1. an unshielded copper Cat 5 or Cat 6 Ethernet cable. ( I bought my Ethernet from Triode Wire Lab as it satisfied all of Emile’s recommendations). I’ve never had a problem and they are well priced and excellently made.

2. a reasonably good power cord and USB cable

3. a good means of isolation

4. No switch …………at least for now…….and maybe yes and maybe no
Ive never used a switch and only would if and when Taiko brings a switch to market.

That was 2 1/2 years ago

I followed what Emile recommended and I’ve never had a problem with my network or any issues that were negative

from the very first alpha” version until present TAS and soon to come XDMS I would say to everyone “ sit back and relax and enjoy each update because they all continue to make our SQ better.
it has always been the desire of Emile to control the signal from the time it enters the Extreme until it leaves the Extreme and even perhaps going back as far as the router. .
His team is second to none and his customer service is truly the best of any company of whose equipment I have owned.
So for now it’s time to get out of the rabbit hole. You might just like it. Think XDMS

I agree with Steve Williams on this. Only I came about the same conclusion after going thru what Steve avoided.

After the OS update and Roon updates over the past several months, the colorations and limits in SQ that my fiber isolation and switches were making became apparent. Once I bypassed them and got the IT chain feeding the Extreme down to Modem-copper-Router-copper-Extreme the sound became more dynamic and less colored. Instrument localization, imaging depth and width improved.

This was a big step up from my previous setup before the OS update.

Then taking some of Emile’s crumbs that he has left for us on this thread over the past several months and putting them into practice led to the next big jump in SQ. I’m just taking Emile’s advice to the Extreme here.

I picked up one of the Amplifi routers that was suggested on this thread and plugged it into my existing router, setup using the Amplifi app (as oldmustang says several pages back is a breeze to use). I agree with oldmustang that it only makes a marginal difference when used after another router.

I wanted to see if going even simpler with the IT signal chain would make any further improvement.

I temporarily unplugged the CAT cable coming out of my modem going to my existing Edgerouter-X SFP router with LPS that serves my home network as well as the Extreme. Instead plugging the Amplifi router directly into the modem. With the only things hooked up to this network being the Extreme and the I-pad and tablet controllers.

The difference was not subtle. Dynamics, front to back depth as well as imaging width increased considerably. The sound had a solidness and consistency that I have not heard from my system. So much so that I added a second IP address to my ISP account just for the Extreme.

Signal path is now dedicated IP address, Arris SB8200 modem with LPS, 30’ CAT5e plenum cable, Amplifi router, 20’ CAT5e plenum cable, Extreme.

Copper CAT cables sound different from one another. Depending on materials used and length of cable. As Emile pointed out shorter sounds brighter. This can be used to tune your system. I’m finding CAT5e plenum cable that uses FEP/PTFE insulation sounds more natural than standard CAT5e or CAT6 cable with PVC insulation.

For the past week I have been enjoying the best sound that my system has ever produced. More dynamic, deeper front to back imaging and wider and larger overall image with rock solid playback. I have also not once experienced the sudden shift in SQ that was part of my experience before all of this. Presumably caused by internet traffic.

There are now only five active devices between the ISP cable coming into my house and my speakers. Modem, router, Extreme, DAC and power amplifier. When simpler sounds better I know we are going down the correct path. Thanks to Taiko.

This being said, all systems are different and require different solutions. This is just one man's observations..

 

[Taiko Audio]

Just a quick note, it's official, I find myself outclassed by the current e-mail enquiry load This is over a 7 day period but still, it's a lot at roughly 700 daily and I'm currently starting to run behind. This is unusual and I hope temporary, but it may take longer then usual to receive a reply right now. Not to worry, we are very much alive, and kicking here!

 

[Xymox]

I temporarily unplugged the CAT cable coming out of my modem going to my existing Edgerouter-X SFP router with LPS that serves my home network as well as the Extreme. Instead plugging the Amplifi router directly into the modem. With the only things hooked up to this network being the Extreme and the I-pad and tablet controllers.

The difference was not subtle. Dynamics, front to back depth as well as imaging width increased considerably. The sound had a solidness and consistency that I have not heard from my system. So much so that I added a second IP address to my ISP account just for the Extreme.

Signal path is now dedicated IP address, Arris SB8200 modem with LPS, 30’ CAT5e plenum cable, Amplifi router, 20’ CAT5e plenum cable, Extreme.

Interesting.

And a side question to all.

Lets say you had a Ethernet cable that each pair was a twinax arrangement with a braid, not foil, shield. No overall shield. So each "pair" becomes a transmission line isolated from each other. Again twin not twisted pair. I would guess after all this upheaval its more try it and see.

 

[Steve williams]

Call it a rabbit hole if you like, but it's really about finding what works best in your system for your ears at any given time in this evolution. A combination of Fiber and copper is best in my system at present. A switch is useful for making that transition.

I'm looking forward to Emile's upcoming network array. He's the one doing the heavy digging!

Wil

i bet I’m the king of descending down every conceivable rabbit hole so I get what you’re saying. Having said that digging oneself out and keeping things simple is almost refreshing as many have found here. I’m not hearing many Extreme users here continuing to espouse switches and optical fiber after the recent OS update.

 

[Steve williams]

Just a quick note, it's official, I find myself outclassed by the current e-mail enquiry load This is over a 7 day period but still, it's a lot at roughly 700 daily and I'm currently starting to run behind. This is unusual and I hope temporary, but it may take longer then usual to receive a reply right now. Not to worry, we are very much alive, and kicking here!


View attachment 90190

Busy hands are happy hands

 

[wil]

Just a quick note, it's official, I find myself outclassed by the current e-mail enquiry load This is over a 7 day period but still, it's a lot at roughly 700 daily and I'm currently starting to run behind. This is unusual and I hope temporary, but it may take longer then usual to receive a reply right now. Not to worry, we are very much alive, and kicking here!


View attachment 90190

As you can see from the graph, your best chance of getting your email read is to send at 4 AM.

 

[Xymox]

As you can see from the graph, your best chance of getting your email read is to send at 4 AM.

Ah yes, but what time zone is that chart hehehe..

Poor guy. That is a crazy number of emails. This update and taming of the digital voodoo has stirred up a lot of conversation.

I can't wait for the next hardware from Taiko.

 

[John T]

OH My Goodness! Emile! Next email from me will be an order, I had no idea you were bombarded this much...John

 

[wil]

Wil

i bet I’m the king of descending down every conceivable rabbit hole so I get what you’re saying. Having said that digging oneself out and keeping things simple is almost refreshing as many have found here. I’m not hearing many Extreme users here continuing to espouse switches and optical fiber after the recent OS update.

If I’m not mistaken, off the top of my head, I I can think of three other (Kris, Rapsody and AustinPop) sticking with there prior network set ups.

 

[kswanson27]

If I’m not mistaken, off the top of my head, I I can think of three other (Kris, Rapsody and AustinPop) sticking with there prior network set ups.

You can add me to the list, at least until Emile's new hardware comes out.

 

[ctydwn]

Alright, you all inspired me to calm (or scratch) my network neurosis...

With the latest OS update, I had compared my cat 6 run direct to the Extreme versus through my Edgerouter (w Nordost Qsource LPS) and M12 Gold switch (w Plixir Elite BDC LPS). When the Extreme arrived two years ago the added combo was a noticeable uptick in SQ. Fast forward to the latest install, I can barely tell a difference. Perhaps the slightest nod to the combo on certain tracks, but will need to do more critical comparisons to split hairs.

For the last hour, reran the comparisons and show my results in order of sound quality preference below. The differences are in the realm of marginal. Cost aside, which is hard to justify, I still have the slightest preference for the Edgerouter and the M12 in the chain. Tonal density, room pressurization and retained liquidity at high volumes are the main features that keep this preference at the top at the moment:

1) Modem (w/ LPS) -> 50' cat6 -> Edgerouter (w/ LPS) -> Sablon ethernet -> M12 (w/ LPS) -> Sablon ethernet -> Extreme
2) Modem (w/ LPS) -> 50' cat6 -> Extreme (close to the above with waaaay less in the chain)
3) Modem (w/ LPS) -> 50' cat6 -> Edgerouter (w/ LPS) -> ethernet -> Extreme (Was surprised this was my least favorite, but I attribute that to the ethernet cable bw the Edge and the Extreme, which may be a somewhat more harsh cable)
* all comparisons w/ Roon

Again, marginal differences, so I would not sneak down into this hole again and I can't wait for the other tech up the Taiko sleeve to cure some of us. All this said, the sound remains intoxicating.