Just a quick note, it's official, I find myself outclassed by the current e-mail enquiry load
This sort of slacking off is unacceptable!! Ever hear of caffeine?
Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème
- Thread starter CKKeung
- Start date
This sort of slacking off is unacceptable!! Ever hear of caffeine?
Omg. We all trust Emile and the Taiko team are thriving and simultaneously taking care of themselves! ha w caffeine, gym, otherwise. If email traffic is correlated w business, how incredibly exciting and to help fuel the ongoing projects. Really did not expect this level of sound quality improvement since the Extreme arrived 2 years ago. Been sitting in my seat captivated for the last 3 hours.
A top swich such as Melco S 100 and Buffalo BSGS 2016 are still giving a big SQ upgrade. Especially when used with top LPS as a power supply.
This will remain true for all other servers forever.
People will always find it as a great addition to their systems.
In case of Taiko extreme it will probably remain true only untill Emile will introduce his own swich , router and ethernet card.
There is many of us sticking with Switch.
You forgot about Nenon who helped many of us to get the chepaer Melco S 100 that is Baffalo BSGS.2016.
He is still using his swiches.
I am also experimenting with routers for last 6 months.
There is much more we can get out of the top class router
then we gain from the switch .
I hope Emile is investigating it deeply for the future Tako device.
I have compiled some post upgrade statistics:
First of all, feedback is limited to about 70% of upgrades applied so far as not everybody gives us feedback, normalizing that 70% to 100% gives:
Audiophile switch provides a significant uptick: 3%
Audiophile switch provides a small uptick: 12%
Cheap switch provides an uptick: 71%
Out of that 71%: Cheap switch replaced an Audiophile switch resulting in better sound: 60% (48% of all deployments)
Also out of that 71%: Audiophile switch severly degraded sound quality 38% (27% of all deployments)
Prefer the sound router direct to server: 14%
Unshielded cat5 or 6 cable sounds better then a shielded audiophile cable: 94%
Fiber sounds better then copper: 0%
First of all, feedback is limited to about 70% of upgrades applied so far as not everybody gives us feedback, normalizing that 70% to 100% gives:
Audiophile switch provides a significant uptick: 3%
Audiophile switch provides a small uptick: 12%
Cheap switch provides an uptick: 71%
Out of that 71%: Cheap switch replaced an Audiophile switch resulting in better sound: 60% (48% of all deployments)
Also out of that 71%: Audiophile switch severly degraded sound quality 38% (27% of all deployments)
Prefer the sound router direct to server: 14%
Unshielded cat5 or 6 cable sounds better then a shielded audiophile cable: 94%
Fiber sounds better then copper: 0%
I should add here this sample is limited to mainly US and EU customers. We have applied a very small number of updates to Asian Extreme owners so far which does make up roughly 35% of our customerbase. I do intend to compile a geolocation list later on.
The router development is progressing nicely, global supply situation permitting, we’re looking at a December launch.
The network card and switch should both be available end of May.
The first batch of both covers all Extreme owners. No need to “signup”.
The network card and switch will stay exclusive to Extreme owners.
The router will be made available to non Extreme owners in a second batch as it will be very expensive to keep it exclusive due to significant development costs, there’s a lot to a router, security for example, it will be “extreme” in that area (best in class, certified and 5 years of active maintenance and security updates included). About a third of these costs will be distributed over the first batch for Extreme owners.
Another interesting feature we’re looking into implementing is to route your Ipad output through the router to the Extreme. That would enable streaming youtube video sound to your system amongst others. That part would however only work for Extreme / XDMS owners.
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There seems to be quite some confusion around network switches and cables. I would hypothesise that there are several reasons for that:
1. The intrinsic sound quality of an Extreme server with the latest HW and SW using a very straightforward modem - wire - Extreme.
2. Several non-specific or generalised statements about network components
3. The lack of a thorough understanding about what is required to constitute a well designed/engineered network
Lets look at the logic
#1 above means that if anything is at all amiss with the network design, it will cause a sonic degredation. The list of things that can impact sonics is fairly long and includes:
1. Type of cable screening and how it affects stray currents between components
2. Type and quality of power supplies used
3. Network components’ vibration control
4. Sensitivity of components to EMI and proximity to EMI sources
5. Inherent component jitter levels
6. Network hierarchy
7. Modem & switch address handling
8. Network traffic
9. Modem/router set points
A network is a chain, so the adage that should apply goes, “a chain is only as strong as its weakest link”….but in the case of a network for audio it’s more complex, because the strength of the chain depends on where that weakest link is. A weak link at the beginning of the chain has far less detrimental affect than at the end of the chain. It also seems that the stronger the rest of the chain, the greater the impact of a weak link, which is why apparently substituting stronger with weaker links can sometimes sound better if it moves the network to a more ‘ideal’ hierarchy. Given that the Extreme is the strongest link in the chain, this is why improving it can highlight problems earlier in the chain.
The other thing that’s causing confusion are generic, unqualified statements such as “ unscreened cables are better than screened cables” or “simple patch cords are better than audiophile cables“. Such statements are not useful because they‘re far from universally true. Not only that, but substituting or removing a network component may resolve a problem that actually had nothing to do with the component substituted or removed
A network is one place where a ‘suck it and see’ approach really has very limited applicability. On the whole, network components should be ‘what they are’ and ‘where they are‘ for a very good engineering reason.
All just my opinion based on my own experience.
1. The intrinsic sound quality of an Extreme server with the latest HW and SW using a very straightforward modem - wire - Extreme.
2. Several non-specific or generalised statements about network components
3. The lack of a thorough understanding about what is required to constitute a well designed/engineered network
Lets look at the logic
#1 above means that if anything is at all amiss with the network design, it will cause a sonic degredation. The list of things that can impact sonics is fairly long and includes:
1. Type of cable screening and how it affects stray currents between components
2. Type and quality of power supplies used
3. Network components’ vibration control
4. Sensitivity of components to EMI and proximity to EMI sources
5. Inherent component jitter levels
6. Network hierarchy
7. Modem & switch address handling
8. Network traffic
9. Modem/router set points
A network is a chain, so the adage that should apply goes, “a chain is only as strong as its weakest link”….but in the case of a network for audio it’s more complex, because the strength of the chain depends on where that weakest link is. A weak link at the beginning of the chain has far less detrimental affect than at the end of the chain. It also seems that the stronger the rest of the chain, the greater the impact of a weak link, which is why apparently substituting stronger with weaker links can sometimes sound better if it moves the network to a more ‘ideal’ hierarchy. Given that the Extreme is the strongest link in the chain, this is why improving it can highlight problems earlier in the chain.
The other thing that’s causing confusion are generic, unqualified statements such as “ unscreened cables are better than screened cables” or “simple patch cords are better than audiophile cables“. Such statements are not useful because they‘re far from universally true. Not only that, but substituting or removing a network component may resolve a problem that actually had nothing to do with the component substituted or removed
A network is one place where a ‘suck it and see’ approach really has very limited applicability. On the whole, network components should be ‘what they are’ and ‘where they are‘ for a very good engineering reason.
All just my opinion based on my own experience.
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I have zero feedback on shielded cables with disconnected shields.
The upcoming network card and switch will include an interconnect, hence this can all be irrelevant to Extreme owners come end of May.
Hi Emile
Exactly what I meant when I said that network components should be what and where they are for ‘good engineering reasons’.
In my case I use star-wiring to a low impedance ground for all cable screens. Substituting a $5 patch cord anywhere in my system is not positive….but then I’m not an Extreme user.
Emile, will the new network card make a profit in SQ with any switch, or only with the new Taiko Switch?
My topology was
Huawei modem to edgerouter infinity to 10gb switch (all using shielded cables) to 10gb switch using shielded cable to extreme using shielded cable.
Changed to
Huawei modem to edgerouter infinity to 10gb switch (all using shielded cables) to 10gb switch using unshielded cable to sotm snh10g (with clock and lps) unshielded to ediscreation fiber box (network filter) shielded to ediscreation silent switch shielded cable but with ground lifted at silent switch to extreme shielded but with groundd lifted at silent switch.
The new topology was a vast improvement and the last three cables being shielded but with the last two ground lifted on one end was clearly better than unshielded for any of them.
Huawei modem to edgerouter infinity to 10gb switch (all using shielded cables) to 10gb switch using shielded cable to extreme using shielded cable.
Changed to
Huawei modem to edgerouter infinity to 10gb switch (all using shielded cables) to 10gb switch using unshielded cable to sotm snh10g (with clock and lps) unshielded to ediscreation fiber box (network filter) shielded to ediscreation silent switch shielded cable but with ground lifted at silent switch to extreme shielded but with groundd lifted at silent switch.
The new topology was a vast improvement and the last three cables being shielded but with the last two ground lifted on one end was clearly better than unshielded for any of them.
Just got the Fedex tracking...should arrive some time next week. ... Extreme-ly excited
oh man, it would be fun to see a sneak peek/teaser pic of the switch, although perhaps too early. Remember first seeing the standalone usb driver pic. that was awesome. looking fwd to it all. i'll be patient. Curious the voltage that will be recommended if a separate LPS will be advised for the switch (my apologies if I missed). thanks again to the team.
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Are these differences (fiber, switch, et al) all driven to improve sound quality on just streaming, or is it a "rabbit hole" for playing files resident on the Extreme as well?
I may have missed this (a lot to read through): will this network card be an option when ordering an Extreme or will it be standard for new orders once it’s released?
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