30 % ?
this will be massive improvement ! In nigth / day category .
Is this just a swich improvement , switch with net card or switch with net card and router ?
Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème
- Thread starter CKKeung
- Start date
30 % ?
this will be massive improvement ! In nigth / day category .
Is this just a swich improvement , switch with net card or switch with net card and router ?
Switch with net card. It’s hard to express this in percentages but that is how I would rate it yes.
This is great !
So you are not counting Router here ( that will be probably additional 30 %)
and no adding the XDMS ( that will also oscilate in 30 % area with potential of squeezing much more with softwere upgrates).
Also BPS is not counted here with great amount of improvement ,
so there is gigantic SQ upgrate expected in total.
Indeed 2023 is going to be a Taiko year !
...approximately 90% better than 2020, it looks like.
Hi Emile.. need some clarification. The switch that we will be getting around Feb 2023 is the 'Small' switch? Do we have an option to get the 'Big' switch?
No problem Emile, thanks for the answer!
Reason why I'm asking is that with fibre the available internet speeds are continuously rising... Here in Switzerland for example, we are already at 10Gbps synchronous for private use and in some areas 25Gbps are already tested. Do we need this for audio? Definitely not. For the rest of the household in the future - maybe...
No that’s the big switch, the small switch we can only launch if there’s enough demand. 2 have enquired so far, the absolute minimum production run would be 100 units.
Hi all,
To briefly digress from the exciting switch / network card discussions and Emile's flow of information, I want to give a follow up on my post 824805 as it has a slight relevance to the TACDD / TACDA reveal & reason for it.
The hypothesis was that the Extreme’s noise floor would be better than that of the OPTO.DX and I’d get better sound quality by removing the OPTO.DX - full disclosure, I was keen for this to be the case, in order to simplify my system, and free up the Ultracap 1.2 LPS’s powering the Rx and Tx OPTO.DX boxes for the new Taiko switch and Router
I bought a longer version of my double headed USB cable that I connect the Extreme to DAVE dac via an SRC.DX USB > BNC converter that would reach directly to the DAVE.
To cut a long story short I ended up keeping the OPTO.DX out of the system but had to add
ferrite cores (100MHz to 2.5GHz quoted filtering range) to 'tame'the effects of noise that I hypothesised was being transmitted over the Extreme's USB data lines. (I hate the idea of what the ferrite core filtering is doing to the USB data signals, but there is a clear net positive effect on SQ to the filtering. I also tried an in-line BNC low pass filter as an alternative to the ferrite cores, but preferred the ferrites). I'm over the moon with the resulting sound (I'm listening via XDMS).
This has all served to make me even more excited for what is to come from the new products that will even further lower the overall system noise floor and continue this incredible sound quality trajectory that the Taiko team is taking us on.
I'm all-in for switch, network card, and router at the minimum, to maximise XDMS's huge long term potential in my system (the short term is amazing regardless, I mean for example running parts of XDMS on the router, as has been mentioned). I'm preparing to have s stern conversation with myself about BPS cost / benefit when the time comes for that reveal. And I’m looking forward to retiring the USB & ferrite cores when I can replace that card with TACDA / TACDA (probably with a new DAC eventually).
More power to you, team Taiko!
To briefly digress from the exciting switch / network card discussions and Emile's flow of information, I want to give a follow up on my post 824805 as it has a slight relevance to the TACDD / TACDA reveal & reason for it.
The hypothesis was that the Extreme’s noise floor would be better than that of the OPTO.DX and I’d get better sound quality by removing the OPTO.DX - full disclosure, I was keen for this to be the case, in order to simplify my system, and free up the Ultracap 1.2 LPS’s powering the Rx and Tx OPTO.DX boxes for the new Taiko switch and Router
I bought a longer version of my double headed USB cable that I connect the Extreme to DAVE dac via an SRC.DX USB > BNC converter that would reach directly to the DAVE.
To cut a long story short I ended up keeping the OPTO.DX out of the system but had to add
ferrite cores (100MHz to 2.5GHz quoted filtering range) to 'tame'the effects of noise that I hypothesised was being transmitted over the Extreme's USB data lines. (I hate the idea of what the ferrite core filtering is doing to the USB data signals, but there is a clear net positive effect on SQ to the filtering. I also tried an in-line BNC low pass filter as an alternative to the ferrite cores, but preferred the ferrites). I'm over the moon with the resulting sound (I'm listening via XDMS).
This has all served to make me even more excited for what is to come from the new products that will even further lower the overall system noise floor and continue this incredible sound quality trajectory that the Taiko team is taking us on.
I'm all-in for switch, network card, and router at the minimum, to maximise XDMS's huge long term potential in my system (the short term is amazing regardless, I mean for example running parts of XDMS on the router, as has been mentioned). I'm preparing to have s stern conversation with myself about BPS cost / benefit when the time comes for that reveal. And I’m looking forward to retiring the USB & ferrite cores when I can replace that card with TACDA / TACDA (probably with a new DAC eventually).
More power to you, team Taiko!
Just being curious
Did you try to chain 2 or more swiches on the way to Extreme ?
Is there any benefit related to it ?
I am asking as the current Buffalo 2016 chain is clearly beneficial upto 4.
Very little benefit with 5 or 6 In chain.
I cannot listen Extreme without Buffalows in the chain as the sound is flat and no emotional anymore.
Pinkfaun ultra clocks add significant SQ upshift to the final result of Buffalo swiches.
Emile
I also I asked about Access point selection before, its isolation and potential Taiko Access point project .
I find access points being the largest source of noise in my system.
I kept my system without it for a very long time. Used RJ 45 wire for ipad / android phone.
Now I use top access point model with top LPS, lowest power settings on 2.4 ghz and 5 Ghz turned off.
How we can isolate access point for now?
I use cascade of switches and very long RJ 45 cabkel with no shield now.
Is there any chance you could consider stepping into the access point area with your company to fix the big souce of noise ?
I also I asked about Access point selection before, its isolation and potential Taiko Access point project .
I find access points being the largest source of noise in my system.
I kept my system without it for a very long time. Used RJ 45 wire for ipad / android phone.
Now I use top access point model with top LPS, lowest power settings on 2.4 ghz and 5 Ghz turned off.
How we can isolate access point for now?
I use cascade of switches and very long RJ 45 cabkel with no shield now.
Is there any chance you could consider stepping into the access point area with your company to fix the big souce of noise ?
Hi Kris,
We are taking 180 degree angle approach to networking noise.
Think of the following analogy:
1) Being stuck in a silent room with a leaking water tap into a bucket of water.
2) Those same drops of water falling into an ocean with you on the beach enjoying the sound of waves.
Our approach is to not drown out irregular noise by hiding it in a wideband high noise floor but rather to make the offending noise itself inaudible allowing you to relax in that silent room and enjoy the sound of silence.
We are taking 180 degree angle approach to networking noise.
Think of the following analogy:
1) Being stuck in a silent room with a leaking water tap into a bucket of water.
2) Those same drops of water falling into an ocean with you on the beach enjoying the sound of waves.
Our approach is to not drown out irregular noise by hiding it in a wideband high noise floor but rather to make the offending noise itself inaudible allowing you to relax in that silent room and enjoy the sound of silence.
An amazing few days on this thread. Clearly the last few years of supply chain issues have eased enough to unlock a huge amount of product development that is in some ways as bewildering as it is impressive. Congrats to the Taiko Team that is now able to bring to market a lot of hard work. I am not embarrassed to admit that buying an Extreme was the single most expensive but also highest value component in my audio chain. Never has that purchase been more validated. Thank you.
PS I can’t help wonder who in Team Taiko won the sweep on when daisy chaining the new switch would come up ;-)
PS I can’t help wonder who in Team Taiko won the sweep on when daisy chaining the new switch would come up ;-)
Sorry missed this one but similar to the analogy in my reply to your previous post.
Let me share a tale on the subject. Once upon a time in our old workshop in Hengelo we had better sound disabling 5G and exclusively using 2.4G wireless networking. Spacing the single 2.4G access point as far away from the listening room as possible improved the sound even further. As we had bad Wi-Fi coverage because of that anyway we did't connect our phones to Wi-Fi which sounded even better!
When we moved to our new facilities in Oldenzaal we had a much larger area to cover, added more machines, needed better coverage and ended up installing an Ubiquity router, switches, multiple Wi-Fi 6 access points, people working here installing wireless internet radios, etc, etc. Before I knew it we had over 30 wireless devices active at all time. With the system up and running, when most of the dust of moving had settled, I thought to myself, hey let's revisit the 2.4G thing which had proven to be that successful in Hengelo. Imagine my surprise as this now worked the other way around. I invested more time, reconfiguring the router and access points, playing with it at night powering off all devices, big surprise, it simply was best using 5G and just having a lot of active devices on the network. Well "best" as in a reduction of a nasty glare & edginess but at the cost of lower overall levels of transparency AND reduced dynamics.
Now you can probably imagine in order to actually fully solve this "problem" a router where you have full control over its software is about the only way to get rid of the "glare" while simultaneously retaining or even improving transparency and dynamics. Though the switch really already solves a significant part of it..
And this is actually a big thing to keep in mind. A lot of network tweaks which "improve" the sound do so by making the sound more relaxing and easier to listen too, like releasing tension, and that can be perceived as a much better sound, no doubt. However, and this is something you may not notice right away or perhaps even at all, a reduction in dynamics, both micro and macro, often a smoothing effect in high frequencies, reducing dynamics there, and this has been a personal struggle for me for years with network tweaks, being able to achieve "better" sound at the cost of a reduction in dynamics, and ultimately reducing/smothering musical life. IMHO this is the ultimate pitfall of digital audio and actually not that far off from the compression applied by mastering engineers we have all come to despise, the wrong tool for the job but satisfactory to the large majority.
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This is exactly what I’ve been thinking reading through all of the recent posts. In particular, it is so refreshing having spent a lot of money on an item to suddenly and unexpectedly realise that a whole pathway of improvement lies ahead instead of just waiting to be superseded by newer, better models being released. It hugely reinforces my original purchase decision.
I mentioned the Extreme recently to an IT guy who is also a keen audiophile and he scoffed at the idea of a server being better than his laptop. Of course, bits is bits. Well, I firmly believe in the importance of the source and have been somewhat obsessed over the years with removing ‘noise’ from my streaming setup. Consequently, Extreme is my 4th music server since the first Melco N1-A, and each one has been a clear step up. If I had to start all over again and rebuild a system and could only keep one item, that one item would be the Extreme. It is now absolutely fundamental to my setup.
I did wonder at the hype I was reading when I first came across the Extreme, but I knew that I would not rest until I had heard one. I got one in to my home for a generous demo period from the UK distributor and, once heard, the decision was easy. I am very happy with mine right now, and I’m still only using Roon, so I have XDMS, Switch and Ethernet card to look forward to. It’s hard to imagine just where improvements can be made, but I do look forward to finding out.
Although, I don‘t have the vast experience with different switches, network setups, like others, I had one interesting observation last year in this regard. My dealer asked me last year for a second opinion and to try out the Waversa Isolator Ext-1 in my system and tell him whether I liked it. I took only 2-3 songs to notice: Yes, it sounds more pleasing, „rounder“ than before, but the joy, fun and excitement also was down quite a bit, so I took it out again. I told him that it could be that in a less „clean“ system / signal path, it can be perceived beneficial no doubt, but once your system has a certain quality, low noise floor and dynamics it‘s like an unwanted smoothing effect. So, what you describe here, Emile, mirrors my experience (if only one data point).
@Taiko Audio dont blame you for missing my XDMS question in the middle of all the well justified network excitement - but:
Does XDMS drop into PCM transiently between each DSD track like TAS did?
Thanks so much!!
Does XDMS drop into PCM transiently between each DSD track like TAS did?
Thanks so much!!
