Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[Ackcheng]

I understand the desire the treat this holistically, but my own experience of room correction is that I got a far better result treating the room through physical means than via DSP software.

I had a small listening room and got some (large-ish) B&W 800 D3 loudspeakers and wanted to be able to control any potential excess bass in the room, so I bought and used Dirac room correction software. It did indeed correct the frequency response of the transfer function from music signal to microphone measurements at the listening position pretty well perfectly. However ultimately I found although it was a very flat measured frequency response it also had a '2D' flat stereo image and an unengaging musical presentation.

I then went back to basics and treated the room, no DSP correction, and ended up with good 3D imaging and musical engagement, with a less perfect but pretty good measured frequency response. I concluded that real-time DSP room correction might be a good idea for 'consumer' type systems, but not the type of high-end audiophile equipment most people on this forum appear to have.

I could be proved wrong, but based on that experience, and the fact that the additional real-time processing the Extreme would have to do to apply the correction via digital filtering would seem to be a 180 degree about face from what I understand Taiko's consistent approach of having a highly capable compute platform that is being asked to do decreasing amounts of CPU operations, resulting in corresponding sound quality uplifts that I've heard first in TAS and then XDMS, I personally wouldn't be too interested in using any potential Extreme-based software room correction capabilities.

(As probably irrelevant background information I also have some professional experience with similar DSP techniques having implemented active noise reduction on military equipment).

Room correction filters can be implemented via Roon DSP if one wants to try.

 

[matthias]

Room correction filters can be implemented via Roon DSP if one wants to try.

Would you apply DSP if you can invite Miles Davis for a concert in your living room?

Matt

 

[nenon]

As I recall, Taiko has been quite clear that the proprietary USB card will not be made available to the broader DIY community.

That has changed and as new products emerge, the USB card will be made available to DIY.

That's big balls...
Really?? You want Taiko to give up their info so you can build a replica Extreme??

@Coca-Cola A brief couple of questions from the DIY Community:

- Would Coke be willing to publish its formula? I feel that it would be a great guideline for individuals (like myself) who want to make their own Coca-Cola.

- What is the approximate timeline for making one glass of Coke?

Thanks in advance!

Hahahahaha. Surrealistic !!!

@BaconBrain is asking a very fair question in my opinion.
Taiko is selling a DIY chassis, transformer, capacitor, DC to DC ATX and soon will be offering NIC, Switch, Router, USB card, and a DAC to the DIY. Plus, Emile has publicly shared the hardware used in the Extreme - motherboard, CPUs , storage, etc. That stuff was never a secret.
If there is a specific BIOS setting that will help the DIY guys who are using these Taiko products to get better performance, I can't see why it can't be shared. If there is some revolutionary settings in the BIOS that Emile does not want to share, those can be skipped of course. But I can't see why a general guideline with some common settings would be a big deal.
I have done an Extreme clone for myself and I ended up buying an Extreme eventually. I haven't had the desire to poke around with the BIOS on the Extreme, but from I have seen so far, a lot of the secret sauce is in the OS.

 

[ticktock]

That has changed and as new products emerge, the USB card will be made available to DIY.

Well, apparently I've missed the happy announcement! And I know Nenon to be intimately plugged-in to all news related to Taiko DIY, so it must be true. This is great news for the DIY community and I hope it can be a mutually beneficial relationship to push all this digital music technology further and faster.

 

[Taiko Audio]

@Taiko Audio A brief couple of questions from the DIY Community:

- Would Taiko be willing to publish their recommended BIOS Settings for the Asus WS C621E Sage Mainboard? I feel that it would be a great guideline for individuals (like myself) who want to build their own Extreme replica.

- What is the approximate timeline for making the Taiko USB Card available to non-Extreme Owners?

Thanks in advance!

We cannot recommend settings beyond a few very basic ones I’m sure the DIY community figured out already, like disabling unused devices, as there are no best settings. It’s an interaction between BIOS and OS parameters which leads to a result. As far as the Extreme goes I’d indeed be unwilling to make this public. I would suggest using the DIY community power of the masses to start up a project of discovery as software for sure can make or break the performance of hardware. It is atleast 75% of the performance, if not more…

The USB card availability for DIY hinges on other new product releases from our side. Please note we cannot make our USB drivers available for DIY for multiple reasons, but we will make our TACDA / TACDD drivers available.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Me and Edward are in beautiful Porto meanwhile attending the “Ultimate Sessions Extreme” of Ultimate Audio Elite Portugal.

 

[John T]

Me and Edward are in beautiful Porto meanwhile attending the “Ultimate Sessions Extreme” of Ultimate Audio Elite Portugal.

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Audio aside, I do hope you and Edward can get your hands on a DOW VINTAGE PORTO 2007. Mind blowing! Thanks for sharing the pics...

 

[heebrog]

Me and Edward are in beautiful Porto meanwhile attending the “Ultimate Sessions Extreme” of Ultimate Audio Elite Portugal.

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Lovely. Can you share your thoughts on the Avantgarde system at the bottom picture. Was this the active system?

 

[Taiko Audio]

Lovely. Can you share your thoughts on the Avantgarde system at the bottom picture. Was this the active system?

Passive, powered by a Kondo Ongaku. Currently no reliable impressions to share

 

[Zeotrope]

This is actually a very good news for those who kept their top class LPS
as they might need them for Swich soon and Router little later.
Then they could get a smaller internal BPS for extreme only and be fully set At lower cost.

One very important question to Emile.
Some supplys are grouned ( negative is) ,
others prefer to keep foating ground For device isolation .

What is Emils recommendation for Taiko Swich and Router in regards to the ground ?
Isolate or ground them ?

I will be grounding my Switch with the Shunyata Altaira Signal Hub, as I have done for the Extreme and other components. It’s a very impressive solution.

 

[Steve williams]

Audio aside, I do hope you and Edward can get your hands on a DOW VINTAGE PORTO 2007. Mind blowing! Thanks for sharing the pics...

Ive visited Porto. After you hear how great your Taiko gear sounds at these sessions, celebrate by taking a tour through the Porto caves

 

[John T]

Ive visited Porto. After you hear how great your Taiko gear sounds at these sessions, celebrate by taking a tour through the Porto caves

Pretty special place and people. I did a private wine tour a few years back. Just me and the driver/guide. Some very interesting whites and the Port speaks for itself. I suggested that DOW 2007 as it scored a perfect 100 points. I have a bottle in the cellar. Most likely very difficult to find...

 

[Steve williams]

Pretty special place and people. I did a private wine tour a few years back. Just me and the driver/guide. Some very interesting whites and the Port speaks for itself. I suggested that DOW 2007 as it scored a perfect 100 points. I have a bottle in the cellar. Most likely very difficult to find...

Way off topic and I apologize but my favorite place to visit in Portugal was The Algarve

 

[EuroDriver]

Lovely. Can you share your thoughts on the Avantgarde system at the bottom picture. Was this the active system?

This is an amazing show for one Dealer / Distributor to put on.

The quality of the rooms, the selection of equipment puts may shows to shame.

Every room was well done by the very competent and hard working staff of Ultimate Audio Elite.

My trip was completely worthwhile to hear Taiko Switch > Taiko Extreme > XDMS > MSB Pro Isl > Digital Director> Select 2 > Gryphon Apex Pre & Power > Kroma Mercedes with cabling by Stage III

For hotel conference spaces the sound quality achieved was outstanding

A lot of industry folks were visitors, and we met over diner and lunch hosted by UAE. A lot of high powered practioners at the table all having a good time

I learnt a lot and am happy to share my personal takeaways with WBF members in a private conversation. DM me to get my 2 cents of the Sonic impressions from my old ears

 

[Steve williams]

DM me to get my 2 cents of the Sonic impressions from my old ears

How could it be anything but great Ed.....your DNA is all over the software and Emile's DNA all over the hardware. My guess is Taiko could run pretty well with the big boys esp with the switch and new Ethernet card. I would really like to read your impressions of the newTaiko sound as you heard it. What better place to read your impressions ( as well as Emile) than here in the Taiko thread.

 

[Zeotrope]

Emile said it was by far the biggest upgrade (compared to the switch and router) I am believe that. Plus, I know how my digital sound varies from day to day which is very likely due to power.

How much of an improvement depends on how good, or bad, your incoming AC power is, and how good, or bad, your AC ground is.

 

[Zeotrope]

Absolutely I am, but I’m making a far stronger statement that might shock you, but it’s an experiment that any of you can try in your listening room. Engineers and scientists like to abstract complex systems by drawing boxes around them and looking at the “transfer function“ of the overall system. You can do this at the level of a single component — a resistor, a capacitor, a transistor, a vacuum tube — or a Hi-Fi component — a DAC or a preamp or a speaker or, in fact, the entire reproduction chain from the original album in whatever format to the sound it produces in your listening room. In each case, we ask a basic question: how linear is this transfer function?

So,, here’s the experiment any of you can do. Pick your favorite album, choose whatever components you want — analog or digital, solid state or tube amplification, dynamic speaker or stat or horn speaker etc. Now, record the actual sound your speaker makes in your listening room when playing back this album.

Now comes the important part. The second time around, play back the recording of the sound your speaker made of the original album, once again through the same reproduction chain. Repeat a dozen or more times. What do you think you’ll end up with?

To show you how nonlinear speakers and rooms are, we need a comparison. For example, if you take a dozen amplifiers (or preamplifiers), and daisy chain them, but level matched each amplifier in the chain to ensure that the chain of 12 amplifiers produced the same volume as a single amplifier. Quad, the British company did this test many years ago, showing that no listener could tell apart one of their Quad 606 amplifiers from a dozen of them hooked up together. The point here is not to critique this test, it’s to make a contrast with our original experiment. Amplifiers are very linear in comparison to speakers and rooms.

So, what happens if you do the original experiment? Well, amazingly enough, after a dozen repetitions of recording your speakers playing back an album, and playing the last recorded sound each time, you get ABSOLUTE NOISE! The signal to noise ratio is 0 dB! It does not matter if you played a jazz album, a classical album, a rock album, a choral piece or an opera. A dozen repetitions through the entire system representing your entire reproduction chain, you get complete noise at the end. Why? Because the room and speakers are so nonlinear, they totally dominate. You get what sounds like FM noise and no music whatsoever. Contrast that with the amplifier experiment where listeners could not tell apart one Quad 606 amplifier from 12!

The late Amat Gopal Bose, a brilliant scientist and engineer at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, who taught a legendary class on acoustics at MIT for several decades did this experiment for his students every year. Each time, the students were completely slack jawed listening to complete noise coming out after a dozen or more repetitions. It’s useful to keep this experiment in mind. Compared to all the other components, the room and the speakers are most nonlinear ones by several orders of magnitude (like many millions of times more nonlinear). .

I will not enter into a debate about 16-bit or 24-bit or 32-bit. I’ll just say plenty of reviewers and contributors to this forum think vinyl sounds better than digital. That should alone tell you a lot. Speakers and rooms are so inherently nonlinear and noisy, it dominates. everything else. If you want to truly advance audio reproduction, you might want to focus on the most nonlinear components in the chain.

This is an example of non-sequitor logic: plucking facts and assembling them in a way that doesn’t make sense. Perhaps it’s me, but even as an engineer, tech entrepreneur, and speaker designer, this doesn’t make any sense and I don’t see the point. Neither do I see the link between digital file bit depth and speaker distortion!
Analog does sound better. If you think otherwise, you’ve never heard a well recorded master tape or lacquer on a world-class machine. It’s still a fact.
But the Extreme comes very very close, and we know Taiko and team are getting closer with every new innovation.
(Nothing above is meant to be a personal attack - I‘m just calling out nonsense when I see it.)

 

[oldmustang]

How much of an improvement depends on how good, or bad, your incoming AC power is, and how good, or bad, your AC ground is.

I would agree that how much of an improvement BPS is over AC depends *in part* on your existing AC characteristics. However, another part of the improvement is intrinsic in getting rid of AC in the box, regardless of how good one's AC may be.

Rectification of AC to DC in itself creates noise (rectifier switching); alternating current and ripple, regardless of how small the peak-to-peak value can induce a voltage in nearby conductive material (wires, PCB traces, component leads) as well as produce motor action, otherwise known as vibration.

These effects can be mitigated to some extent by careful selection of rectifier diodes and incorporating additional components to "snub" switching transients, and of course we are all familiar with chokes and capacitor banks to smooth the half-wave DC pulses produced by rectifier bridges. However, so long as there is an AC to DC conversion occurring inside the box, these effects cannot be totally eliminated.

Steve Z

 

[Zeotrope]

I would agree that how much of an improvement BPS is over AC depends *in part* on your existing AC characteristics. However, another part of the improvement is intrinsic in getting rid of AC in the box, regardless of how good one's AC may be.

Rectification of AC to DC in itself creates noise (rectifier switching), and alternating current and ripple, regardless of how small the peak-to-peak value can induce a voltage in nearby conductive material (wires, PCB traces, component leads) as well as produce motor action, otherwise known as vibration.

These effects can be mitigated to some extent by careful selection of rectifier diodes and incorporating addition components to "snub" switching transients, and of course we are all familiar with chokes and capacitor banks to smooth the half-wave DC pulses produced by rectifier bridges. However, so long as there is an AC to DC conversion occurring inside the box, these effects cannot be totally eliminated.

Steve Z

Agreed. But Taiko has already built what must be the world’s best AC power supply, which is already in the Extreme.
I hypothesize that the biggest gain from the BPS will be if incoming AC and grounding is not great.

 

[oldmustang]

Agreed. But Taiko has already built what must be the world’s best AC power supply, which is already in the Extreme.
I hypothesize that the biggest gain from the BPS will be if incoming AC and grounding is not great.

With all respect to Emile I think that even he would admit the power supply in the Extreme is not the best AC power supply in the world. It is a very, very good one without a doubt. However it represents engineering and marketing compromises -- as it should -- to make an Extreme server available at a particular price and in a particular configuration. It is (now) neither state of the art nor cost-no-object. For those Extreme customers that do not opt for the BPS, the DC section of the new power supply system is an upgrade over the existing one in the Extreme. That has already been stated earlier in this thread.

To your statement that batteries have problems, that is true, however battery technology and power density continues to improve and Emile has said he has spent a lot of time, money and effort designing proprietary circuitry to minimize battery limitations in his BPS system. That another respected manufacturer tried a battery supply and gave up really signifies nothing other than that these aren't trivial problems to solve (and perhaps says something about that manufacturer's willingness to adopt an off-the-shelf solution over investing in basic engineering research).

Steve