Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème
- Thread starter CKKeung
- Start date
Dear Emile,
During the Munich High End 2022, I talked with the MSB representative that was showing the MSB Select II with the Digital director, and he said that the sound improved substantially with the Stromtank [S1000]. I understand that the Stromtank supplies AC to the MSB and then the MSB has to convert the AC to DC in its power supply modules.
If the Taiko BPS could supply the MSB DAC and Totaldac DAC directly the specific DC voltages, bypassing power supply modules and consequently the DC to AC and AC to DC, among other diferences in design of the Taiko BPS that only you may know, the Taiko BPS may substantially outperform the Stromtank, by feeding DC voltages directly to the DACs.
I suppose that most of the design cost has already been incurred for the BPS, so it would only be necessary to provide regulators for the specific DC voltages required by MSB and Totaldac (and other DACs with external power supplies). The additional sales of BPS for DACs could help dilute the R&D cost you have already incurred, and would help many of your Taiko customers. So, I hope it gets into your projects pipeline.
Not going to happen on MSB end. They would never sell the dac as a stand alone piece and give up the profit from the power bases.
In addition, how many MSB owners would forgo their power bases for a Taiko BPS? I'd venture not many, making it a VERY niche product for Taiko.
To be clear, will the stock internal PS supplied inside the router be a "wall wart" type of PS ?
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Christiaan Punter
Well-Known Member
Taiko Audio Extreme made it to the Stereo Times Most Wanted 2022 list. "NASA engineering" 
We only have IOS now but that is pretty easy to add, so yes.
For clarity, the router will have a DC barrel jack input accepting 12-19v DC in (same as the switch).
We will supply a low cost wall wart for functionality.
It will perform better with a higher end powersupply.
If your Extreme has had the 8th of February 2022 OS update, or has been shipped after that date, we do not recommend to use Fiber at all. In case you don’t, or don’t know if you do, please reach out to support@taikoaudio.com.
The demand for a Taiko BPS for the Totaldac DAC, MSB DAC or other DACs with external power supplies will depend on two items: (A) How much better is the Taiko BPS vs the existing power supply (perceived value), and (B) the price of the Taiko BPS.
The existing power supply of the Taiko Extreme is already quite good, and uses top of the line parts. However, if the new Taiko BPS is substantially better (item A), some people will purchase it, depending on the price (B). I, for example, would like to hear the difference before making this decision, and would go for the option using the existing chassis (least expensive option). Since many people will purchase new Taiko Extremes without the BPS, perhaps Taiko could give a discount if Taiko keeps the existing power supply when replacing for a BPS, further reducing the price and increasing the demand for the BPS.
Regarding the demand for a Taiko BPS for Totaldac DAC or MSB DAC (or other DACs with external PSU), the customers already have the DACs and already paid for the power supplies. I doubt Totaldac or MSB will sell new units without the power supply, but this does not matter, at least for the many customers that already paid for their power supplies (sunk cost).
Suppose for example that the Taiko BPS for the Totaldac is substantially better than the power supply that comes with the Totaldac (Item A), and the price is reasonable (Item B), I would certainly purchase one. In fact, this already happened in a similar way in the past. There is a manufacturer that offered a better power supply (expensive and well built) than the original power supply that came with the Totaldac, so I and other people purchased and used it instead of the original Totaldac power supply. Eventually, Totaldac came up with the new Livepower power supply, and I am using it now.
So it is possible to use power supplies for DACs made by other brands, and this has already happened. The demand will depend on (A) How much better is the Taiko BPS vs the existing power supply, and (B) the price of the Taiko BPS. If the Taiko BPS is much better (as expected), and the price is reasonable, there should be a good level of demand.
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Agreed on all counts. Determining how much better the SQ will be with BPS is the conundrum. The improvement has to smack you in the face. I don't think Emile/Taiko would go to this level of innovation if it doesn't smack you in the face.
Emile said it was by far the biggest upgrade (compared to the switch and router) I am believe that. Plus, I know how my digital sound varies from day to day which is very likely due to power.
Question for @Taiko Audio or @Christiaan Punter:
I am a big fan and heavy user of PGGB. I know that the upcoming TACDA (soon to be renamed?) uses a Rohm DAC chip that supports up to 32 bits and 768 sampling frequency. I have been assuming that TACDA will accept up to 32/768 files and play them natively. In other words, I am assuming that Taiko will configure the Rohm chip so that it does not oversample when presented with a 32/705 or 32/768 file (i.e., a non-oversampling DAC). PGGB files work best with DACs that do not oversample when presented with 16fS (705 or 768) files or any other files like 8 fS. Assuming that this is correct, it would seem that TACDA would be an excellent candidate for PGGB playback.
If you could simply confirm that my understanding is correct, it would be greatly appreciated.
I am a big fan and heavy user of PGGB. I know that the upcoming TACDA (soon to be renamed?) uses a Rohm DAC chip that supports up to 32 bits and 768 sampling frequency. I have been assuming that TACDA will accept up to 32/768 files and play them natively. In other words, I am assuming that Taiko will configure the Rohm chip so that it does not oversample when presented with a 32/705 or 32/768 file (i.e., a non-oversampling DAC). PGGB files work best with DACs that do not oversample when presented with 16fS (705 or 768) files or any other files like 8 fS. Assuming that this is correct, it would seem that TACDA would be an excellent candidate for PGGB playback.
If you could simply confirm that my understanding is correct, it would be greatly appreciated.
Folks, before we all get carried away with talk of 32 bits and 768 kHz sampling rates, take a look at the actual measured performance of DACs. No DAC in the world achieves even 24 bit linearity. Check hundreds of measurements in Stereophile. The best DACs maybe get to 19 or 20 bit linearity. When you factor in how bad loudspeakers are, which routinely have 5-10 % total harmonic distortion in the bass, you have to conclude that higher sampling rates and bit depths is not only pointless but also looking at the wrong end of the reproduction chain. If you want a true revolution in high end audio, make loudspeakers that distort less. Otherwise it’s all pointless.
I would think the least distorted speaker would be a full range planar or electrostat, (not a hybrid) and sub's with servo control woofers. The Velodyne servo subs in the day put out less than 1% distortion. I'm sure regular sub's today are at least 5% or more distortion.
When you factor in how good our ears actually are, we find that speakers are more than good enough for these things to not just matter, but matter a lot.
At least with MSB, an owner who opted for a Taiko BPS for their DAC -- should such a device ever become available -- could probably recoup some of that "sunk cost" by selling their MSB power supply to another MSB owner. My understanding is that some models will accommodate two MSB power supplies as an upgrade to one.
Steve Z
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Measurements of Quads done a long time ago by Hi Fi Choice (UK) and more recently in Stereophile show that Quads are indeed very linear as most loudspeakers go. Their distortion at moderate volumes is around (0.1%), which is about -70 dB. So, you get about 12 bits of linearity. But only at moderate volumes. Above 90 dB or so, Quads will start to distort before shutting down. Klipschorns and La Scalas are quite linear as well with about 0.1% distortion at higher volumes. Notice both of these are far from resolving even a 16-bit Redbook CD recording, let alone 24-bit high res recordings. A speaker that can resolve all 16 bits of a CD is science fiction still. As regards 24-bit high res, that’s a pipe dream. As for 32 bits? You’d need to maintain linearity down to -192 dB. Even if you spent a billion dollars, I doubt you could manage that in any hifi component. Maybe in a multibillion dollar physics lab with superconducting wires and temperatures close to absolute zero Kelvin. In the real world with what we can put in an actual living room? Not a chance in hell.
